Beyond "jubilate Deo" Ordinaries in OF
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Since my schola introduced simple latin Ordinaries about two years ago in our parish, the congregation is starting to sing them quite well. Also our pastor starting to sing them during daily Mass these days. But naturally, the schola wants to move on to a bit more elaborate ones. Last year, we were gently, but strongly asked to switch to a simpler Kyrie, instead of Kyrie XI, which I thought of as a pretty manageable one for an average congregation. Are there any parishes go beyond 'Jubilate Deo' and 'Missa de Angelis' Ordinaries in OF Mass? I meant 'do you actually have the congregation sing them ?
    So in order to have the congregation sing the Ordinaries as Vatican II asked, it seemed that we are limited to sing simple ones. I really don't see how the average congregation can sing other beautiful Ordinaries without being taught. Although Ordinary parts are farily easier than Propers, they are still in a different style of music than what modern people are used to, and Gregorian chants are sung by people who actually had time or at least made time to sing them more often. In these days, not many people can spend their precious time to learn beautiful music for Mass. I heard today that in a parish the Mass attendance went down when their schola started to sing more elaborate Ordinaries, because people feel that they cannot participate.
    So what do you do? I agree with 'brick by brick' approach, but I also see the limits in the participation of the congregation in singing, while following the Church's instruction of placing Gregorian chants in the first place in the liturgy, and having the congregation sing Gregorian Ordinaries.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Mia, pray for patience. You've accomplished so much. Keep the simple ordinaries and ask if your schola can sing the Communion antiphon or another part of the propers. Be thankful that your folks are singing chant.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,182
    Maybe some holy-day Masses or first Friday Masses could provide opportunities for the schola to do something more elaborate, if it's agreeable to your pastor.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    THanks Michael and Chonak.
    I am very thankful for my schola and the parishes we sing. And we started to sing Communio too.
    The other day I was looking through PBC and singing all those beuatiful Kyrie(s) we never get to sing, and wished that I can find a way to share those beautiful music with others in the church. Only way to teach the congregation those music is just repeat them in the Mass and hope that they can eventually catch on. If the congregation can't sing them, I feel very 'guilty', because the Church asked them to sing, and it should be the main goal for our schola singing Ordinaries, even just on special feast days. A couple of weeks ago, a new schola member joined us, and she is not a Catholic. When she sang Kyrie XI with the schola in the class, she thought it was so beautiful, while the frist impression to most Catholics was 'it is too difficult to sing.'
    I really do need to pray for patience.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    Advent is about to begin; why don't you consider Mass XVII (with Kyrie XVII C), which is fairly easy? It's sung with success in my former parish.
  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    Funny, I would rate Kyrie XI as one of the easiest. We sang it this morning without any trouble. I think that it's much easier that Kyrie VIII (de Angelis). Our congregation also picked up Kyrie XVIIIC during Advent and Lent without too much difficulty.
    Perhaps you could take a look at Kyrie XII (Pater cuncta), it's not too difficult - also I really like the Sanctus from this same Mass. It could be quite easy to introduce to the congregation by getting them to just join in for the 'Hosanna in excelsis'. Even if you don't have a practice before Mass, you could just repeat the Hosanna twice each time and invite the congregation to join in the second time. There are also a few other Sanctuses (or is that Sancti?) which could be given this treatment.
    For the Agnus Dei, No. IV is very simple and, again, having the congregation sing the 'miserere nobis' could be an option as it's the same melody (idem for Agnus XVII and a few others)
    Seems you're doing a grand job anyway. Just be patient - I too would love the congregation to be able to sing the whole Kyriale at the drop of a hat but know full well that Rome wasn't built in a day.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,182
    It might be helpful to look for the pieces that have simpler features, such as little melisma and only modest leaps. Kyrie XII, for example.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thank you so much for the encouragements. I didn't think about repeating 'Hosanna.' That's a good idea. (Although I should explain that before the Mass? which I really don't like to do.) We also sing Agnus Dei IV, and I, the director, turn to the congregation and invite them to sing 'miserere,' but most of them are so used to singing everything, so without me explaining how we do beforehand, they don't seemed to get the idea. Any way, it's hopeful. I just fear people not singing chants if I change them when they just started to sing.
    (I was even started to think that Vatican II's idea of beauty of singing is actually based on the number of voices, not the aesthetcal quality. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see some contradiction in the instruction on singing. I'll try to have the congregation sing the Ordinaries as much as I can, but I started to think that is it really wrong for the congregation to just listen once in a while and internally pray together to those beautiful singing if they didn't have time to learn to sing them? I have chant classes open to everyone, but most people seemed too busy to come to the class.
    I hope to get more wisdom to move onto the next stage for our schola and implementing sacred music in our area.)
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Mia, we live during an age when few people can sing anything more difficult than a country song refrain. Bring them along slowly and get them used to feeling good about their chanting before asking for more. Ask your pastor if your schola can sing an elaborate Kyrie very occasionally as an inspiration to the congregation. That should give you an outlet. Once a PIP feels overwhelmed by unfamiliar music he/she will shut down and you will lose them.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,606
    At one time we moved to the Missa De Angelis, printing out and marking the congregation's parts to show that they are to sing the Eleison.

    We got complaints from people who insisted that they, as members of the congregation, wanted to sing the entire Kyrie.
  • darelmass
    Posts: 11
    Mia,

    I recommend a look at the five Ordinaries in the Graduale Simplex. In my parish we have been singing the "Jubilate Deo" Ordinary (Ordinary I in the GS) for about two years; this Advent we are heading into new yet still relatively simple territory: Kyrie XVIIIa, Sanctus X and Agnus Dei XVII. I was much more ambitious last year during Advent and Lent, using Kyrie XVIIc, Sanctus XV and Agnus Dei XV; people complained that these were "too hard" and Father hinted that we needed something easier for the congregation.

    Many of the Ordinaries in the GS are assembled from the Graduale Romanum, but not all. Ordinary III, for example, is almost wholly specific to the GS; Ordinary V is a mixture of Ordinary X from the GR and material specific to the GS. If you want to sing a Latin Ordinary but find much of the GR beyond what your congregation is ready to sing, the GS is your ticket!

    Darel
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    This is why there is a distinction between the roles of the choir and the congregation. If all Catholic music MUST be sung by the congregation, we are headed for the artistic wastes. I don't believe that it is, although so many parishioners have been brainwashed otherwise. It will take some time to undo this. In the meantime take them from where they are to where they need to be as courteously as possible.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    Since the Graduale Simplex has been mentioned, notice that, if you do not have one, you can still find all the Ordinary chants specific to that book (those not found in the Graduale Romanum) scanned and included in this thesis. (It's in Italian, but of course you can disregard the text and what it says about tonality and just use the music.)
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Sanctuses (or is that Sancti?)


    sanctus is not a second declension noun, but rather fourth declension; the nominative plural would be "sanctus" as well (identical to the singular).

    also, Mia, instead of changing the Ordinaries that the congregation can now sing, what about branching into propers or communion hymns which are meant for the choir alone?
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thank you for all your suggestions. I hope this thread is also helpful to other groups.
    This is what I'll do based on the suggestions:
    1. Branch out Propers and other chants
    2.When I feel secure to change, change to simple Ordinaries, possibly from Simplex
    3. Find out possiblities of singing more elabrate Ordinaries on special feast days
    (consult with the pastor, especially for No2 and 3 above)

    I have one simple question. I do own Gradale Simplex. But it is copyrighted, 1988. So I assume I cannot make copies for the congregation?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,182
    They're pretty flexible about it. Once I asked for permission to copy a chant and print it on a T-shirt, and they said it would be fine if I'd make a donation to some good cause (e.g., pro-life work) for each one I printed.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > But it is copyrighted, 1988.

    Notice that much (though certainly not all!!!) of the stuff in the Simplex can be found in other books, e.g. the 1912 Antiphonale Romanum, which is not covered by copyright.

    PS - Sorry, after writing this I remembered that we were talking about simple settings of Ordinary chants, and these are surely not found elsewhere. (They are given in the thesis I linked to above, but I bet the author of that thesis asked no permission and just copied the chants anyway. You know that not all countries are as quibbly about copyrights as the USA...)
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    (davalerio, I know there are so many laws here. My head spins to think about these laws, because I'm from a small country where common sense is used more often :-) But it must be for good reason, and I have to keep up with them. Thanks)
    It would be nice if Graduale Simplex was in open source (?), so more people can use it .
  • rsven
    Posts: 43
    Dear Miacoyne, Don't worry about it. Just sing whatever ordinaries you want. They are all so accessible over time that the people will eventually remember them. The real solution is to begin to teach the children in CCD, and by the time they are confirmed, they will think nothing of singing 3 or 4 ordinaries. This, of course, requires the Pastor's direction. We worry too much.
  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    Thank you Jam.
    I should have made the effort to look in my dictionary. Although I felt intuitively that 'Sancti' wasn't right, I couldn't think of the proper declension at that time of night.

    Actually I think that rsven's comment about singing whatever you want is perfectly legitimate. Indeed, I do remember reading a statement to such an effect in the Gradual somewhere - basically saying that the compiled Mass settings are only a guide and you're free to mix and match to suit your needs (and capabilities, presumably)
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    I personally find the fourth declension the most annoying of the five. ;-)
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