Patrick Joseph, to answer your final question:

ORDINARY FORM

EXTRAORDINARY FORM

Hi, Patrick.

Both versions are included.

However, I would be interested in what you consider "true Gregorian Propers." E.g. some of the chants in the Vaticana were composed in 1895: do they qualify as "true Gregorian Propers" ?

Hi, Patrick:

If you want the full GRADUAL or ALLELUIA, go to Isaac Jogues, display all, and use the search function.

Also, I would be interested in what you consider "true Gregorian Propers." E.g. some of the chants in the Vaticana were composed in 1895: do they qualify as "true Gregorian Propers" ?

Basically, whenever new feasts were added since the Solesmes revival of chant, they were the ones who "adapted" those melodies. Haberl did the same (and prided himself on being a Gregorian composer), but, of course, after about 1903 his editions weren't used by practically ANYONE. (Although, I do have in my possession a book published by Schirmer in America in the 1940's and it has....the Haberl versions....which leads me to believe that they were still used in some places...

Hi, Chrism.

(1) How ancient are the Propers for Christ the King?

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(2) Also, Re: what we have done on Rene Goupil:

At the moment, since the site is in BETA, we have only put up certain options at this time.

Other options are available at Isaac Jogues.

Which are more helpful to Catholic musicians? I am not sure.

We are only trying to help, in whatever small way we can.

We have made no statements about "replacing the ideal" or anything like that.

Everyone is free to have opinions about the Chants Abreges, but I think they are very useful and I don't like it when people denigrate them.

There are many reasons for this, but the main one (for me) is not an objective one. It is my respect for Dom Gajard. I don't know anyone who did more for Gregorian chant. I love his recordings more than I can tell you. I have the utmost respect for him. I'm told he was the one who conceived of and adapted the chants for Chants Abreges.

Even as someone who has only met Jeff O in person once at each of the past two Colloquia, I can attest to his passion for doing as much as possible to help musicians do all that they can to adhere to the Church's ideals. Are we all there yet? Not even close. But those of us starting from (almost) scratch do need intermediate and even, yes, baby steps to get there.

I for one don't understand how people can sneer at the Rossini Propers and the Chants Abreges No, they're not ideal, but they help us get to that ideal, and do great good along the way.

Sorry, I'm going to tell you another anecdote.

Three of us from our schola came back from the Colloquium this year determined not only to continue our work on the chants of the Gradual at our EF Mass, but also (a la Fr. Z's Rules of Engagement) to see if we could help the OF Masses in the parish, where the music is limited to organist and cantor, all OCP all the time, with the usual suspects. We offered to sing English settings of the Propers once a month, and were told we had to sing hymns, although we were allowed to sing one of the Propers (so we chose the Communion antiphon). I got permission from Fr. Weber to use his settings, and as it happened, the antiphon that week was straight psalm tone - Rossini in English.

It caused a sensation. People applauded, the Pastor thanked us from the altar, etc.,etc., (all the things we didn't want to happen), but afterward 10 minutes people were asking what we were singing, how often we practiced, when were we coming back, etc.

The 90-99% of Parishes that don't have Chant and Polyphony, if they are ever to have them, are going to have to start with the basics. REAL basics.

Bravo Jeff! We'll contribute recordings for you!

Greg,

Baby steps are necessary steps, but often times people don't want to see baby grow up.

In our current context, most people don't even know what an "adult" music program sounds like.

But having the minimal options alone readily available, and then adding a footnote saying "if you want the Propers from the Graduale, type in another URL, click a link to a big page and click Ctrl-F" does create the impression that their use is at the very least not anticipated.

Fear not! Before the official release of the sites, this will be clarified. That being said, Isaac and Rene are not really different sites....at least they are not supposed to be.

For myself, I have always felt that the Alleluia verses were the most wonderful chants of all. The plan is to make these available on Rene as well.

I admire your dedication to promoting the full melodies. We used to sing the full Gradual and Alleluia verse, and I'll never forget those days. Beautiful, happy days.

I do feel that other options have often been suggested by true lovers of Gregorian chant. As is well known, Peter Wager and some of the others on the Pontifical Commission suggested that the chants between the readings be OMITTED if the choir could not handle them! This was not adopted officially (but did happen in America, as did some other disturbing things, like singing these chants WHILE THE EPISTLE IS BEING READ). I don't hold it against P. Wagner and the others who fought so hard for chant---they were just trying to help.

Here are two more interesting quotes:

"With regard to the formulas to be adopted for the simple chanting of the Graduals, Tracts,
and Alleluia verses, Dr. Wagner proposes that, to this end, reference be made to the
formulas of the responsorial psalms that have fallen into disuse. The liturgical nature
of these chants would thus be maintained. Dom Mocquereau shares this opinion."
—Pontifical Commission for the Editio Vaticana (minutes: September 8, 1904)

"With regard to the idea of shortening the verses of the Graduals and Alleluias, it seems that
Mr. Védie did not express himself well, or that he was misunderstood. He wrote to me that he
had simply wanted to say what I myself had said; but I never spoke of abbreviating anything,
but I did say that the melodies must remain as they are and that singers who do not know
them or cannot sing them could omit them, replacing them with organ, or performing the
psalms in another manner."
—Father de Santi, letter to Dom Mocquereau (August 26, 1901)

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Gregp that's marvelous news!

Very impressive! Catholic musical programs of this sort are certainly not allowed to exist anywhere in the two archdioceses in which I live and work! Which standard embodies the Church's musical and liturgical heritage more faithfully? Hmm ...

rsven,

There is a school associated with the church - choir is a mandatory class. Ward Method is taught from grade 3 through grade 6. There is a strong home-school community, so we have a group class on Wednesday nights for the home-school kids who can't make it during the day. The Schola sings all the propers from the Graduale Romanum religiously (no pun intended)... which means because they're such a stubborn group that the addition of all the Tenebrae services really makes holy week a long LONG week!

The schola existed before I came on the scene, so I'm not sure how they got the interest, although I know that some members of the schola were former seminarians who kept the tradition alive among the faithful. The fact that the clergy sing Lauds, Vespers, and Compline in choir also helps keep the tradition strong.

Daniel,


FYI: The only paid music personnel in the parish is myself, at the RCCO/AGO scale of only 10 hrs per week. Everyone else volunteers their time. It truly is a labour of love - but it's soooo worth it to put the effort in.

CF

the traditional roman hymnal put out by the sspx is absolutely dreadful. nice typesetting but the editors werent musicians. the part writing is so bad that much of it is unplayable. truly an embarrasement.

frogman
you cannot be serious. take a look at page 123. compare the harmonization with whats found in any other hymnal. clumsy to the extream. compare page 50 with the bach harmonizsation (found in most hymnals). unnecessarily clumsy chord progressions. again and again end of phrases not in root position, 7th and 9th chords in renaissance tunes.
sloppy and unnecessary. how can you approve of this?

Aga, the priests give their full support to the music of the parish. They regularly attend rehearsals of both the Senior and Junior Choirs, and take regular voice coaching lessons. There are 300 families in the parish (approximately 150 children in the school). As for the opinion regarding music - I can only give back the feedback that I receive: and it's overwhelmingly positive. The priests encourage regular attendance at Sunday Vespers. In fact, the priests (3 of them) sing lauds, vespers and compline in choir and encourage the faithful to attend. For Sunday vespers we usually have about 50 people singing the psalms. The fact that one of the priests was cantor/precentor at the Seminary (he has a gorgeous tenor voice) helps tremendously in raising the confidence level.

As for the Roman Hymnal, I couldn't agree more with Don Roy. The chants are good, a nice selection of chants for the year, but the SATB writing is unpleasant at best and for the most part unsingable. There are plans for a group of organists and choirmasters to get together and compile a new book soon.

This chapel is extremely lucky to get so much for only 10 hours a week.