• To anyone with info:

    Has anyone heard any updates about changing the sign of peace from its place now in the Ordinary Form of the mass to a more suitable one. I haven't heard any discussion in awhile on the topic so I thought I would throw it out there.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    I was hoping the swine flu epidemic would cause it to be cancelled altogether, at least, as it is practiced in the U.S.
  • It was canceled for awhile at our parish due to that fact, but its making a come back.
  • There are various rumors that it will be moved but I doubt there is anything to them. Of course the public sign of the peace is optional and any pastor can easily phase it out if he wanted to.
  • My choirs are always under strict orders NEVER to engage in skin-to-skin contact of any sort before and during rehearsals and liturgies, H1N1 or no H1N1.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    My choirs are always under strict orders NEVER to engage in skin-to-skin contact of any sort before and during rehearsals and liturgies, H1N1 or no H1N1.

    interesting! What's your reason for that policy? The handshake (although it is really a secular gesture) is the gesture approved by the competent authority (the USCCB) for the Sign of Peace, is it not?
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    I think everyone should do three kisses on the cheek, Russian-style.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    You could do light bow with two hands fold together - (Korean style)
  • G
    Posts: 1,401
    You could do light bow with two hands fold together - Korean style


    I've been being Korean! Who knew? (certainly not my Polish or Irish grandmas.)
    One member of my choir does what he calls "the modified pope" after JPII, both hands about two feet apart held chest high, palms inwards and fingers slightly curved, bowing and smiling.
    He uses it for the Kiss of Peace and any moment meant to elicit applause in church.
    He's thinking of switching to "the Benidict," what one TV commentator referred to as "piano fingers."

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • The passing of the peace was introduced without one but of instruction. I comes from the ritual passing of the peace in the Solemn High Mass, something which most post Vat. II types had never witnessed. It was passed from the priest to deacon first - both persons arms simply extended, the "passer" with his palms downward and arm above the recipient's whose palms upward to receive the peace. The deacon then turned, palms downward, to the sub-deacon, whose palms were upward. And so the passing progressed through to ordained ministers in choir. It was not shared by the laity, though it probably was over 1,000 years ago.

    So, no specific ritual was designed or instituted with the Vat. II reforms, but the secular hand-shake crept in, even from seminarians home visiting for the summer. Everything seemed to simply slip in, like a whole herd of camels with their noses under the tent.
  • I hate it! It has turned into an excuse to visit!! AARGH! I have actually seen people inthe congregation cross the aisles to shake hands and chat with others. Did I say I really, really hate it?

    Donna
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Mia, I didn't know yoga was Korean~! That sounds just like the way the instructor greets the students at the beginning of class. Then she says, "No más, Che." Or something like that.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    I hate it, too! With a friend's help, I took the song, "Take This Job and Shove It," and rewrote it as "Take your peace and shove it, I ain't comin' here no more." Wishful thinking, to be sure, since that peace greeting never goes away.
  • And it's bad all the way to the core of people who really try to get "into it". A fellow musician I have occasion to work with (from the height of the 70s style) always says "God bless you", and even occasionally tells me I'm a good person, or even compliments my tie! It is the passing of CHRIST'S PEACE, just like the Deacon says. Is that so difficult to digest?
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    The local Ordinary is forbidding skin contact at the Sign of Peace and also stopping reception of the Cup and (this is the bad part) banning reception on the tongue.

    Hearing this today was pretty ironic after hearing about Jesus putting his own spit on the deaf guy's tongue. It made me cackle a little.
  • My own parish is a bit out of date. We aren't talking about Swine Flu. The prayers of the faithful this morning said something about 9-11. Everyone looked around in confusion, like the guy at the microphone had been digging through the archives. Really, for the prayers of the faithful, shouldn't we be reading from the day's newspaper or even have a Google News Feed running on the lectern?
  • Jeffrey

    Concerning the Google News Feed at the lectern, our last pastor was preaching a daily mass homily once and forgot a fact about the saint. It wasn't a problem, because all he had to do was pull out his iPhone and look it up. Don't worry, he is very liturgically sound.
  • My 'no touching' rule has to do with the spread of colds, etc.
    Also, they are almost always holding the music for the Agnus Dei.
    And, of course, I detest any sign of peace at the OF/NO which last more than, say, 4 seconds.
  • The Peace was exchanged immediately before (what we now call) the offertory in the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus (215 A.D.) In the developing Roman rite it was soon moved to its current place immediately before the fraction. In the Ambrosian rite it was exchanged in both places.

    Anciently the Peace was exchanged, not passed from the celebrant through a chain of ministers, as in the late medieval High Mass. It is an affirmation of Christ's presence in the congregation of the baptized, not a presbyteral blessing.

    It's restoration was appropriate. Unfortunately, in many churches it has evolved into something disruptive. In the Episcopal Church's rites, where it precedes the offertory, it often degenerates into a true intermission. People wander all over the church, greeting everyone in sight. Unchecked, the Peace sometimes lasts last five minutes. This is an abuse, plain and simple.

    I prefer that the Peace be placed before the offertory; but I suspect that if it were moved there in the Roman rite, it might get FURTHER out of hand than it has in its current place before the fraction. Where it stands, reverence for the Sacrament probably serves to curtail some excesses.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    I begin the intro for the Agnus Dei as soon as the priest announces the sign of peace as though saying "we should take no more than 3 seconds folks!" Seems to work well. What truly bothers me is when the priest wanders off the altar and leaves the Sacrament abandoned.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    Even in the Eastern liturgy, the priest exchanges the peace greeting with the deacon and those around the altar. But there it stops. It is not something the congregation does. Perhaps it was curtailed in medieval times in the west because of abuses then. It kind of sounds like history repeating itself.
  • Last week, I was out of town and the church I attended actually had a little song for this. "Let us offer each other the sign of peace" repeated over and over till everyone was done. I had never heard such a thing before.

    Steve Collins, at my parish, there was elaborate instruction when the congregational sign of peace was introduced (late 60s). At first, it was a quite formal extension of something like the peace at Solemn Mass. The priest shook hands with the altar boys, who then proceeded down the center aisle shaking hands with the first person in each row. These would then turn to the next person, and the next, and so on across each row. Instruction from the pulpit was given the first couple of weeks when this was new. Beyond that, my memory is a bit vague, but this procedure lasted perhaps a year or two before shifting to the free style we recognize these days.

    Another thing that's worth mentioning, is that the general sharing a sign of peace is optional. From the rubrics: "Then the deacon (or the priest) MAY add: Let us offer each other the sign of peace." (emphasis added).
  • We learn so much by traveling to other towns and seeing what is going on in other parishes. It usually turns out to be a wake-up call.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Even in the Eastern liturgy, the priest exchanges the peace greeting with the deacon and those around the altar. But there it stops. It is not something the congregation does. Perhaps it was curtailed in medieval times in the west because of abuses then. It kind of sounds like history repeating itself.


    I've been to many Orthodox parishes where the sign of peace is a congregational thing. In most places it is a simple handshake, and one says "Christ is in our midst," and the other says, "He is and ever shall be." (During the Paschal season: "Christ is risen," and "Indeed He is risen"; and during Christmas, "Christ is born" and "Glorify Him.") In my home parish they exchange hugs. Some parishes do three kisses. One parish I went to they do a metania to each other (profound bow) and THEN three kisses and then another metania.

    I think as long as it is short and people are saying something reverent rather than conversational ("Peace of Christ be with you" or "Christ is in our midst," etc.) then there's nothing wrong with it. It does have historical precedence... and scriptural. "Greet one another with a holy kiss," right?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    We don't do any of that. After liturgy and before consuming the leftover, non-consecrated but blessed, bread, we are annointed with oil by the priest. He says, "Christ is in our midst." We respond with, "He is and ever shall be." You must be in one of the "friendly" Othodox jurisdictions, or maybe just a non-Slavic one. ;-)
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Well, the friendliest one was an Antiochian parish, which started out as a pan-protestant group associated with Campus Crusade for Christ. Long, awesome story concerning their conversion as multiple congregations in California and Alaska into the Antiochian archdiocese in America. I bet their friendliness is a bit of leftover protestant sentiment.

    The congregation which does the metania-kiss-metania is under the Bulgarians, actually. Most three-kiss places I think would be Greek or Arabic (Antiochian) but I actually haven't been to a Greek church yet.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    I'd like to remember the Maronite practice here. After the gifts are brought to the altar:

    The celebrant kisses the altar, places his hands on the offerings, then gives the peace, as he says:

    Cel: Peace to you, O holy altar of God. Peace to the holy mysteries placed upon you. Peace to you, O minister of the Holy Spirit.

    Deacon: Let each of us give the greeting of peace to our neighbor, with that charity and loyalty which is pleasing to the Lord.

    The people exchange the greeting of peace with joined hands.


    The peace is conveyed from the priest to the deacon, then to the servers, and from them to the people: usually the servers give the peace to one person at the end of each pew.

    In each step, one "gives the peace" by presenting one's hands joined, palms together. To receive it, one brings one's together around the giver's fingers, and then separating. That leaves the recipient ready to "give the peace" to the next person in turn.

    It's a simple, sacred gesture: a mere touch, as it were; orderly and hierarchical, making clear that the peace originates from the altar.
  • In the Sarum Use, the Pax Brede was used to express the Peace and Presence of Christ in the midst of the congregation. There are a few Anglican and Scottish Episcopalian parishes that have tried it, but I do not know of a parish currently using the Pax Brede.

    My happiest experience of the exchange of the Peace was among Japanese Catholics (like the Korean example above) who folded their hands and bowed to each other with simplicity. A religious sister told me that they do not bow towards each other but rather each bows toward the other recognising Christ present within each other. 'The Passing of the Peace' as used in some of the US Episcopalian churches I have visited struck me more like an Interval at a sporting event or a theatrical performance in which one might expect someone to come out hawking snacks and drinks. However, with proper Catechesis, this moment could be a liturgically meaningful aspect of the assembly's participation in the celebration regardless of its location in the Mass.

    In the current edition of the Mozarabic Mass (and something similar in the version before Vat. II), the Rite of Peace is immediately before the Sursum Corda. It is a very lovely rite in which the Sign of Peace is shared whilst the choir sings the 'Cantus ad Pacem':

    Pacem meam do vobis, pacem meam comméndo vobis.
    V. Non sicut mundus dat pacem, do vobis.
    R. Pacem meam do vobis,pacem meam comméndo vobis.

    V. Novum mandatum do vobis ut diligátis vos ínvicem.
    R. Pacem meam do vobis,pacem meam comméndo vobis.

    V. Glória et honor Patri et Fílio et Spíritui Sancto, in sæcula sæculórum. Amen.
    R. Pacem meam do vobis, pacem meam comméndo vobis.
  • I was out of state and therefore attended Dormition (Assumption) services in the local Antiochian parish. I was a bit taken aback when right before the Lord's Prayer (or somewhere right around the Lord's Prayer), people started coming at me to shake hands. I've attended quite a few different jurisdictions, and many Antiochian parishes, but this is the first time I had encountered the handshake thing in an Orthodox Liturgy.

    We do begin Great Lent with Forgiveness Vespers, at which each of us approaches everyone else, and begs for forgiveness. We do not shake hands, however. We do what the clergy do at every Divine Liturgy, and kiss each other on the cheek, three times (as referenced by another commenter). It is a highly moving service.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    We do begin Great Lent with Forgiveness Vespers


    At my home parish, for Forgiveness Vespers we actually make prostrations to each other. I like the beginning of Lent there because they clear out all the rows of chairs no one uses anyway.

    rwprof, I'm guessing you're either Orthodox or Eastern Rite Catholic?
  • Orthodox. And yes, we do prostrations as well.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Ho! That makes two of us Orthodox folks here. I thought I was the only one.

    Going to Franciscan University right now. When I tell people I'm Orthodox, they're usually like, "um... you mean, like... Byzantine Catholic?" (If they even know what that is.)

    Liturgically conservative folks here, however, generally know exactly what I mean (or converts who studied a lot of church history before becoming Catholic).

    Back to the topic at hand--! I don't think there's anything wrong with handshakes so long as it doesn't turn into some kind of social hour. There are some people might be inclined to that in my home parish, but the choir director just starts us singing and that's the end of that.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    As they say in the east, "Orthodoxy - the best of disorganized religion." Or as the Byzantine bumper sticker says, "Honk 40 times if you love Jesus."
  • "Honk 40 times if you love Jesus."

    That's funny right there! Or, as we say, if it's worth doing once, it's worth doing three times.