"The Catholic Hymnal"
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    In going through some of my bookshelves (having begun the second round of a "scorched earth policy" regarding books, etc. that I have collected over the years, some going back to my NPM days, which no longer reflect my personal convictions regarding the Church or its music and liturgy), I came across what could be a chestnut, a pearl of great price.

    It's the pew edition of a hymnal called "The Catholic Hymnal and Service Book" published by Benziger Editions, NY, NY., copyright 1966. It bears a legend stating that it was published "with the approval of the Commission on Church Music, Archdiocese of New York".

    The Editorial committee is interesting in itself: Msgr. Richard B. Curtin; Rev. Joseph Foley, CSP, Dir. of the Paulist Choristers, Church of St. Paul the Apostle, NY NY; Rev. Robt. Hayburn, PhD, FAGO, Asst Superintendent of Catholic Schools and Archdiocesan DM, San Francisco, CA; Rev. Martin Burne, OSB, PhD, Novicemaster St Mary's Abbey, Morristown, NJ; Frank Campbell-Watson, Mus.Doc., KCSG (Editor of Benziger).

    It's all traditional hymns, plainchant in modern notation (in Latin), text of the Ordinary (double-columns, Latin/English), Mass settings in Latin and English (including Willan's St. Mary Mag Mass with the text adapted for Roman rite use!!!), etc.

    (Christmas either came rather late, or extremely early . . . )

    Questions:

    1) Does anybody know anything about this hymnal, and

    2) Does anyone know how I might go about finding an accompaniment edition?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    I think I may have that same hymnal. I will check and let you know. I am going down to my remote studio tomorrow morning so I will find out at that time.
  • Jscola30
    Posts: 116
    As a hymnal collector, this is the first time I've heard about it. I went to look for a copy for myself, and it's very expensive $70-85 range for the pew edition, which means by jove, this is a rare one and you are to be congradulated.


    I use www.bookfinder.com this allows you to search all used book websites (alibris, abe books, etc), however I do not think you can search ebay auctions. Remember to keep trying peridically, things show up at different times.

    Another source would be places like this, discussion boards. Hymns, Psalms, and Spiritual Canticles is another out of print hymnal that's very rare. The stories I've heard of for getting the organ/choir editions in recent years have been through places like this. Another disucssion board I and some others post on is over at rpinet.

    Used book stores, although in my experience, are not great places for hymnals, but you never know. I found a hymnal at a store once called the Middlesex Hymnal, a chapel hymnal for a boarding school. The hymn selection was incredible, hymns in their original languages, as well as Latin.

    If there is a way, check some of the old choir lofts in your area. I've been amazed at what you can find in an old choir loft. Tons of MA choir lofts have Pius X hymnals laying around. Ask the music director if he/she is using it and if not, offer a price. A friend was working at a church that had an accompaniment edition of the Pius X hymnal and he let me have it.

    www.worldcat.org This site allows you to search libraries throughout the world. Bring the world cat number to your librarian and see if she/he can get it for you. I'm not going to publicly advocate copying the whole thing but if there's something specific in the hymnal you're looking for, this is one way. There may be a shipping charge for it, and some libraries may not let you take it out.
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 968
    I looked on Abe books and found two Pew copies, both listed at $75 plus shipping (you've got yourself a valuable book). There were not accompaniment editions available... good luck.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    Oh, my!

    I'm glad I asked. Won't retire on it, but it's nice to know I've got something worth keeping!

    Thanks for the references. I'm guessing that I won't find the accompaniment edition (not without it being rather "spendy", as they say up here in Minnesota).
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I happen to have enough copies of this hymnal (pew edition) for a small schola that I'd be willing to part with for a more reasonable figure, provided they were put to good use. The English Kyriale is especially useful, and does not require accompaniment. You can find accompaniments for most of the hymn tunes in other books. Many of the texts, however, I have not seen in other hymnals.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    incantu:

    I may just hold you to that offer. Please permit me to hold off on further negotiations until after Easter.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    No, I didn't have that book. However I did find this.

    Manuale Missae et Officiorum ex Libris Solesmensibus Exerptum

    Editio Solesmensis, 1903 (modern notation)
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    I have a pew edition of this great hymnal - it looks like what the real idea of what VatII had for a congregational hymnal. How sad this that hymnal is gone, and we have the awful books we are stuck with now.
    I've never seen an organ edition. If you find one, please let me know!
    GH
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Special Offer to CMAA Members,

    None of us are making the money we should, so if you would like a copy or copies of Eucharistic Hymns, special price (about half price) AND including shipping at:

    http://www.frogmusic.com/thecatholichymnal/cmaa_members.html

    For awhile....

    noel
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Hm: The PayPal system adds a shipping charge. Is that right?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    It should not, let me check that....
  • WGS
    Posts: 300
    Ten or fifteen years ago, I inherited a couple of Catholic hymnals from a retiring Episcopal priest. One is "The Book of Catholic Worship" published by The Liturgical Conference in Washington, DC. The date is 1966. There are no Mass ordinaries, but there are proper texts for Sundays and many holidays. It includes a very nice 4-part hymnal section plus a complete psalter and many other prayers and services. This was the time of Sundays after Pentecost - no Ordinal Time. I never saw another copy of it and had never even heard of it.

    Also, I have "The Catholic Liturgy Book" dated 1975. The General Editor was Ralph Keifer who was Associate Professor of Liturgy at St. Mary's Seminary in Baltimore. The General Music Editor was Roger Nachtwey. It includes some ordinary setting and a good selection of unison hymns plus Morning and Evening Prayer and proper texts for Sundays cycles A, B and C. There's a fair amount of Latin (and Greek) and all in modern notation.

    Again, I never heard anything of it.

    Has anyone else run across either of these two. I have no plans to get rid of them. I'm just curious about whether these two hymnals ever got into circulation. By the way, there are no guitar chords to be seen in eith hymnal.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Rerouted the purchase through E-Junkie, now it's just $8....like promised.

    http://www.frogmusic.com/thecatholichymnal/cmaa_members.html

    Chonak, thanks...
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Hi Noel:

    I just purchased a copy. Thanks for the discount!

    In JMJ,

    Francis
  • VickiW
    Posts: 36
    Noel, I feel incredibly stupid, but I do not understand how to order the book at the $8.00 price. All I see is a big mostly empty black screen with one button (view cart) but no actual "add to cart" button. I used the link you provided in your post. Please help. I want to order a copy for myself and one for our director. We are both CMAA members.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Vicki, you are not stupid!

    The web page reverted back to one that does not work and the sidebar on the main page disappeared at the same time.

    Fixed!

    noel
  • VickiW
    Posts: 36
    It worked! Thank you, Noel.
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 776
    I snagged a copy of The Catholic Hymnal some years ago. It has a complete English Psalter (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, 1950/55) with a few supplemental canticles. But what I especially like are the English translations of all the Mass Propers, following the then-current Missal. I wonder if anybody wrote musical settings using these translations...
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I was really excited to find so many new hymnals of real quality, including The Catholic Hymnal of 1966. The New Catholic Hymnal from England, available here through Faber, I believe, also showed great promise. But with the onslaught of popular music these projects were sadly, very sadly abandoned. So church musicians were basically denied access to them through the marketing of the new stuff, which is markedly inferior.

    What really, really is bad is that the market has also pushed composers into creating mass quantities of music, distilling their gifts so that instead of finding some well-done, well-thought-out hymns and service pieces, it's the same old stuff over and over again.

    The Catholic Hymnal Project, as we perceive it, hopes to save and preserve some of the good music of the church.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    noel:

    Take heart. Some of us composers have refused to join the "same old stuff" market and are right with you on producing and distributing only excellent new music that is worthy of liturgy (to the best of our ability).
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Can anyone help me on this? I politely refused to play "I am the Bread." and the DM says there are chants that directly refers Jesus as 'I" too, not just modern hymns. It may be true. I said but the problem is it's got out of hand, and too many modern hymns are centered on 'I'. and I asked who is the "center' of the worship?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Mia, this is commonly referred to by detractors as the "Vox Dei". We've been over this argument a thousand times; you can see the old discussion here: http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=647 I fall on the side of allowing it, so long as the text is scriptural - let's not have God saying things He didn't really say! Hence, I would say "I am the Bread of Life" is OK, since the text is a verbatim quotation from scripture. Others of course will disagree. You should examine the viewpoints available and form your own conscience and act accordingly - no one on this board has the authority to tell you what to do!

    Also, no one has proven that the Church has any legislation, direct or indirect, which addresses this.
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    "Does anybody know anything about this hymnal"

    J. Vincent Higginson in his "History of American Catholic Hymnals" says that "Unfortunately the publication of Benziger's 'Catholic Hymnal,' 1966, edited by Frank Campbell-Watson was hardly issued before it was abandoned because of changes in the liturgy."

    I would venture to say that the whole unfortunate implementation of the Novus Ordo helped sink quality publications like this. A quality hymnal was replaced by a disposable missalette, which a church music professor friend described as being for "Christian-ettes."
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thank you Gavin for the link. It was very very helpful. I'm very convinced on what I do now.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    I am pretty sure . . .
    that God didn't . . .
    speak to man . . .
    on occasion . . .
    in very short . . .
    phrases . . .
    such that we . . .
    as modern . . .
    composers . . .
    could fit His . . .
    quotes within . . .
    our rhythmic . . .
    framework.
    Allelu- . . .
    ia!

    "Vox Dei" is the least of the problems with "I Am the Bread".
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 968
    Thanks, Noel... just ordered a copy.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Friends,

    This is a wonderful dicussion!

    Thank you so much!

    David Andrew, would you be willing to scan the index page of that hymnal you found, and let us peek?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Steve, actually when I read your post I thought you were speaking of Gregorian chant. Do you also reject the use of hocket as a compositional device? And eschew Bach's cantatas? That would be a rather sad way to view music, requiring that a text be stated in full without pauses. Unless the year is 1590... I'll check the date on my computer's calendar program and get back to you as to whether we've moved out of the Renaissance yet.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    Different genre. I was speaking of hymnody, since the thread is about hymns and hymnals. Complex chant and polyphony are for more trained choirs and scholas.

    I have actually been asked by non-musicians "why are Catholic songs so difficult to sing?" My answer is simple: they were written by composers trying to impress other composers and maybe challenge parish musicians. IMO that is NOT the goal of congregational hymnody.

    As to Bach, I have been an organ builder for many years (although I have tried many times to get out - maybe this time I'll be successful!), and the absolute worst year of my life was his 300th anniversary - so many all Bach recitals! I'm am totally Bach-ed out! I have no use, liturgically, for anything of his. And I no longer attend organ recitals of any sort - they just put me to sleep in the hard, uncomfortable pew!

    I'm a Catholic organist (which in my view includes liturgist) specializing in the EF Mass, but playing for anything as needed. If I don't need it for Mass, then I have no use for it.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Fair enough, Steve, and I would agree that ideally congregational music should avoid rests, let alone rests for 3.875 measures!! (Be Not Afraid of the slew of uncountable and tiny rests between every three words!)
  • Lawrence
    Posts: 123
    Steve Collins,

    "If I don't need it for Mass, then I have no use for it."

    Three years ago, on a cold, dark late Fall afternoon, I sat down at the organ. I was practicing in the church where I had a hold-me-over job that paid just barely enough to put food on my table. I had recently been run out of another job in which the parish leadership tried pretty hard to convince me that I knew nothing about church music. They almost succeeded.

    On this particular afternoon, life was feeling pretty harsh, though I can't remember the exact reason why. I opened Bach's Orgelbuechlein to his coloratura setting of "Wenn wir in hoechsten Noeten sein" (When we are in greatest need). I started playing, and when I was finished, wept. In that moment, I knew that Bach understood me; that where I was, he had also been. In short, his music is as red-blooded as it gets.

    One could amass a prohibitively long list of pieces in which Bach joins theology and humanity in the same work: the Actus Tragicus, Alle Menschen muessen sterben (I'm thinking in particular of the one in the Neumeister collection), and just shake a fist at the score of the St. Matthew Passion for more examples. On and on.

    How dare we say that, because this music is, according to some, not useful for the Mass, that we therefore have no use for it? Such a stance is one tiny little baby step from the barbarism that tries to wish away anything that we do not understand. I, for one, when faced with a piece of Bach's that I don't immediately respond to, always assume that the problem is with me, not with him.

    Are those of us who fancy ourselves champions of traditional Catholic music stumbling on the block of our own purism? Chant is wonderful, so is polyphony. But for heaven's sake, there's more to music--and to the Roman Rite of the 21st century (even in the EF!)--than that. As someone who routinely plays Buxtehude and Bach at the EF, I worry that we're digging our own grave when we say that we have no use for anything that doesn't fit our tightly-defined milieu, even if it means that we ignore the Greatest Composer Who Ever Lived.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    Hi Michael.

    I do tend to agree with you. But, remember, I am not degreed, nor do I have any intention of going back for that at age 57. The repertoire you speak of is far past my ability, especially throwing in some stiffening of the joints. The only Bach I can actually get through are a couple of the "Eight Little Preludes & Fugues", which might not even be his.

    I love the Latin Mass, and all Masses, even when I play the Clavinova with a volunteer guitarist (I also volunteer for this one) at the weekday Noon Mass across the street from my work. I am also an Administrative Assistant full-time, so organ is only part time. And the EF Masses I do play for, I also create the printed worship aid, including all music to be sung and copious artwork. My #1 hobby is change ringing - English style tower bell ringing. I'm also involved in the Ancient Order of Hibernians, the Scottish Society, and as part of the latter the Board of Directors for the Sandy Jones Invitation Piping Competition, since my oldest son is a professional bagpiper. Between my time commitments elsewhere, and stiffening digits, I pick my task carefully, especially the ones that require much practice. So, that which I said I don't have any interest in are also those that I don't have the basic ability either.

    Our EF Masses are mostly Low Masses with as good a selection of hymns as possible - all done in Finale so that I can use the proper melodies AND texts. When we have the occasional High Mass, I am quite happy to sing in the choir, and also accompany the Gregorian Propers with the small schola. We use the Faure' "Requiem" at least once a year, and I am overjoyed to have someone else play for that. The baritone part is within my range, and I'm close enough to the console to slip on the bench for the occasional Gregorian chant. If other organ repertoire is desired at such a Mass, I have no ill feelings about not playing it. Why? Because it's "above my pay grade". And I am happy with that.

    I think the dichotomy here is between smaller parish EF Mass and larger "cathedral" Masses - where more musical resources exist on a full-time weekly basis. Were I living in such a city, I would be quite happy to either sing, or just attend Mass in the pews with everyone else.

    I am not against Bach, etc. being used in Catholic Liturgy. I'm just not personally interested in it. And I don't consider myself to be less of a Catholic organist for that lack.

    Bless all of you who do have that ability! I'll enjoy listening to you some time.

    And I really don't listen to much music when I'm relaxing - I'm usually relaxing ringing bells or socializing. And any/all types of music put me to sleep when I'm driving, so I NEVER put anything like that on when I'm on a long trip.

    What I do, I believe I do quite well. What I don't do, I have no interest in doing - for better or for worse.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Steve Collins,

    Hello fellow Hibernian (electronic secret handshake)!

    Michael, you are quite right that Bach's organ music can have a place in a Catholic Mass. I would draw the line at most of his vocal works (the Bm Mass aside), since his formidable ability to compose music that underlines Lutheran theology gives me pause. His son J.C. converted to Catholicism. Maybe there are some treasures there to unearth.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    A quick note to introduce our english-language HYMNS TO MARY, inclding all the favorites, but more importantly some really good tunes and texts you have never heard of.Our first sale was to a woman looking for Annunciation hymns (4 included). Also Month of May-7, May Crowning-3. Assumption-4, full list: 60 hymns set to 72 tunes in total.

    Almost all are in four parts, normal hymnbook layout.Three that were most popular(Mother Dearest, Mother Fairest; Mother Dear, O Pray For Me; and Bring Flowers Of The Fairest) in two parts with Alberti-bass left hand are in twice, once as the original, next in four parts in harmonizations we created.

    There were a few {Mother Beloved, for example) that just did not make the book based on the less than stellar musical setting.If anyone needs it though, we will email a copy...and search out others needed missing from the book as they come to your attention.

    A CD of 50 of them played on the organ will be available shortly to help get them heard and appreciated. There's a sample or two on the site.

    Also. "An Anthology: Eucharistic Hymns• Benediction • Hymns To Mary" that includes everything in both books plus more "O Salutaris" and "Tantum Ergo"'s than you have ever heard before are sandwiched in between.

    This book represents hymns from the period 1850 to 1925 as far we we can tell. And you will find many of these quite tasteful. Even the one that mentions the dragon.

    www/thecatholichymnal.com
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Speaking of great Catholic Hymnals - I have copies of two I think are quite fine:
    The Pius X Hymnal 1953
    The Basilian Hymnal 1958
    Both are English hymnals, but have a fair amount of Latin, and both are full of great Catholic Hymns.
    Both of these were intended to be congregation books.
    I would be interested to know if anyone else has seen these.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    ghmus:

    I have both.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Would there be any interest/value in scanning these for the Musicasacra website?
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I'm all for scanning these two hymnals. They would need full bookmarks.

    By the way, we really need bookmarking volunteers.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    The Pius X Hymnal is superb, having been edited by the great Theodore Marier. Another lesser-known hymnal he put together a little later was "Cantus Populi," smaller than the former but with some wonderful and hard-to-find hymns.

    Hate to bring this into the conversation, but be aware that the Pius X and Cantus Populi hymnals are still under copyright. The original publisher of these hymnals, McLaughlin & Reilly, went out of business and was bought up by Summy-Birchard. Marier himself had to get permission to republish things from them in his "Hymns, Psalms and Spiritual Canticles."

    Sam Schmitt
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    'By the way, we really need bookmarking volunteers."

    Jeffrey, could you tell us what volunteers actually have to do?
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Rich, that's good to know. I hadn't actually done the research that I always do before posting. I see clearly now that the copyright was renewed -- heck of a thing to do. I'll take a sip of wine rather than rant against the state and its monopolistic laws.

    I would bet that that more Parish Book of Chant, which we also give away for free online, were purchased in the last year than PX Hymnals.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Ah, wait. I see that the claim limit is to new matter only in the 1957 and 1958 editions. That means there is one previous that might be available, and I don't mean 19th century. Could be the 1940s.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I just got the most encouraging comment about my hymnal project via the net:

    "How sad that you want to drive even more people from the church and make Roman Catholicism even less meaningful by trying to dwell in the past."
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    A Catholic doesn't ask "what is new", a Catholic asks "what is old."
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    frogman,

    I wouldn't be too worried about such comments - if you think about it, every hymn and song was written in "the past" - we can't exactly sing sings written in the present of the future, can we?

    Sam Schmitt
  • JacobFlahertyJacobFlaherty
    Posts: 331
    I am resurrecting this post. Interesting questions about the Benzinger Hymnal. The Catholic Church of the Holy Childhood in St. Paul Minnesota STILL USES this hymnal. I was just googling Healy Willan's Mass in Honor of St. Mary Magdalene which more or less uses the new translation texts and came upon this discussion. Their phone number is 651-644-7495. I would love to get a copy of the accompaniments, but I have two copies of this pew-edition hymnal in my possession.
  • Pedro d'Aquino
    Posts: 128
    I have the accompaniment edition. If anyone can determine that the book is in the public domain I will have it scanned and offer it to the CMAA.
    Thanked by 3expeditus1 Chrism David Andrew
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    I never did scan the index, etc., as requested way back when. I personally have the technology to do it now, so I'll get on it later this week.
    Thanked by 1Chrism
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
  • davido
    Posts: 943
    Still interested in a scan of this hymnal...
    Thanked by 1marymezzo
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