Sang “Hail Mary: Gentle Woman” at a funeral today…
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 336
    This song bothers me for a variety of reasons, but Landry’s verses typically bother me the most.

    You were chosen by the Father.
    You were chosen for the Son.
    You were chosen among women,
    And for woman, shining one.


    So, in line three, he uses the plural “women,” but then in line four, he uses the singular “woman,” and I believe he’s still talking about womankind, so why the use of both women/woman? “Shining one” is also interesting. Maybe he is referring to the “woman clothed with the sun”?

    Blessed are you among women,
    Blest in turn all women, too,
    Blessed they with peaceful spirits.
    Blessed they with gentle hearts.


    So- what makes all women “blessed”? It also seems to underplay the Blessed Mother’s sinlessness by making all women likewise “blessed.”

    Arguably, the only good part of the song is the “intro” with the Hail Mary prayer, but even that part is written in an absurdly low key that is a little hard for the congregation. BLEH. I guess the sing-songy 6/8 time signature is what has made this a nostalgic piece for many.

    Needless to say, this STINKS.
    Thanked by 2Abbysmum CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,496
    It's a song that sounds like it's made for a hand-held portativ organ where the incompetent player/singer lets the bellows drain and the voice sag iteratively. (It's one of the songs that inspired my decades-old presumptive programming rule of thumb that one should choose congregational songs that do not need any accompaniment to sound good. HMGW sounds ridiculous in the mouths of congregants without accompaniment - it would become a wheezing, scattershot mess in terms of coherent tempo because its melody is an invertebrate, perhaps an amoeba.)

    I faced this one on New Year's Eve evening and could not help but wonder ...why not just sing . . . the thing on the adjoining page in the annual music issue, the Mode 1 Ave Maria (Simple Tone) - once by the cantor, then inviting all to repeat? No matter how many people chose to sing either, it would all have sounded (and likely prayed) much better had the Ave been sung instead. It's not like the meaning of the Ave is obscure (and the melody is hardly more difficult than that of HMGW): everyone knows what it means. Rinse and repeat; people will learn it, people will own it - it's part of their birthright to own, if only someone bothered to help them own it. (Had someone asked me, that's what I would have offered in reply....)

  • GerardH
    Posts: 628
    one should choose congregational songs that do not need any accompaniment to sound good
    Never thought of it this way, but this is an excellent rule.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 1,039
    I turned this one into an SATB a capella piece with the reduction of one verse and a time signature change. The melody got placed into alto because of the pitch.
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 128
    I dislike that song intensely, for all the reasons stated above. It does occasionally get requested at funerals. I try to steer them towards Immaculate Mary or something similar, arguing that "everyone will know the refrain [Ave] part, but many people won't know Gentle Woman". I can convert them about 75% of the time.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,048
    I hate it, too.
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 336
    Liam, you’re right. If it were acapella, it would sound even worse.

    It also makes me laugh when people think chant is too difficult for a congregation but have no qualms about HMGW (or even “Be Not Afraid,” which I also sang today). I find this contemporary stuff much harder to pick up on than many of the ancient chants of the Church.
  • tandrews
    Posts: 214
    The Gordon Lightfoot Ave Maria.
    Thanked by 1davido
  • oldhymnsoldhymns
    Posts: 263
    About 25 or 30 years ago, Father Andrew Greeley (of all people) did a spoof, in a nationally syndicated Catholic publication, on Gentle Woman. In it he pretty much cited the same criticisms that you have pointed out. He essentially claimed that it was nothing more than a women's-lib song! Nevertheless, it is a very popular Marian hymn and has been for many years. People in my parish sing it with gusto. I think the reason for that is that they want to sing a hymn to Mary and it's about the only hymn they know. A priest commented to me a few years ago that people often request Gentle Woman for funerals because they think the hymn is about their own (biological) mother!
    Thanked by 1davido
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 128
    It also makes me laugh when people think chant is too difficult for a congregation but have no qualms about HMGW (or even “Be Not Afraid,” which I also sang today). I find this contemporary stuff much harder to pick up on than many of the ancient chants of the Church.


    So true. Every verse is different. So much of the music from that era is like that.

    I think the reason for that is that they want to sing a hymn to Mary and it's about the only hymn they know.


    Ah, they only think that! Once I suggest others, they realize they also know them.

    I find a large part of the problem for funerals is that it's the children who have stopped practicing their faith that are planning the funeral. That's the music they remember from their childhood.

    A priest commented to me a few years ago that people often request Gentle Woman for funerals because they think the hymn is about their own (biological) mother!


    I have never encountered that, but it wouldn't surprise me!
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen oldhymns
  • TCJ
    Posts: 1,039
    The problem of people picking that music at funerals goes away if you just have a church policy that they don't get the option of choosing anything. The church does that. It works great when you have a pastor who backs up that policy.
    Thanked by 1Abbysmum
  • The problem of people picking that music at funerals goes away if you just have a church policy that they don't get the option of choosing anything. The church does that. It works great when you have a pastor who backs up that policy

    And then those of us who are competent at picking music get stuck with the funeral classics. Even Pavarotti couldn’t escape On Eagles Wings at his funeral.

    I wouldn’t mind if parishes just sang the Latin Chant propers for funerals. Funerals can become reverberatingly loud and pounding when they turn into a Canonization Mass to give the deceased “a good send off”. The deceased is gone. The time to give them a “good send off” was when they were still alive and able to receive last rites as they transitioned into the next life about to meet their maker and go to their judgment.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,048
    It also makes me laugh when people think chant is too difficult for a congregation but have no qualms about HMGW (or even “Be Not Afraid,” which I also sang today).


    I always thought "Whistle a Happy Tune," might have better theology in it than "Be Not Afraid."

    Beagle's Wings. Pull on the trems and the lushest strings on the organ and have a good time with it. It seems impossible to escape at funerals. Sad to say, you will get compliments on it.
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 128
    The problem of people picking that music at funerals goes away if you just have a church policy that they don't get the option of choosing anything. The church does that. It works great when you have a pastor who backs up that policy.


    I sometimes think of proposing such a policy, but I doubt it would get support at our parish. The other issue is the "funeral choir", which is made up of older people who love those songs as well. They just show up and sing. The most beautiful funeral I have ever played was when the traditionally-leaning family requested a particular soloist instead of the choir, and we could pick proper music because she was actually capable of singing it (and the family supported it).

    unerals can become reverberatingly loud and pounding when they turn into a Canonization Mass to give the deceased “a good send off”. The deceased is gone. The time to give them a “good send off” was when they were still alive and able to receive last rites as they transitioned into the next life about to meet their maker and go to their judgment.


    That's a catechetical problem. People don't understand the purpose of the funeral rite.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen francis
  • Quaint to hear it was once regarded as feminist. For today's gender warriors it would be aggressively essentialist and patriarchal.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 627
    That's a catechetical problem. People don't understand the purpose of the funeral rite.

    It’s also an audio engineering problem. “Let’s build a huge futuristic fancy cathedral with tuneable acoustics and a boatload of various types of microphones, but not hire someone who knows how to use them or the sound system.” I feel like this is another area of liturgical worship that is rather forgotten about/not even a thought in many parishes/diocese.

    I always thought "Whistle a Happy Tune," might have better theology in it than "Be Not Afraid."

    Can you elaborate? BNA is based on Isaiah 43:2-3 and Luke 6:20.
  • Politically incorrect opinion: Hail Mary, Gentle Woman is a good song, at least if your parish is playing any music from the folk music era. It's by far one of the best folk style liturgical songs.

    It has an uneven meter because it's prose. One of the advantages of the folk music genres, along with other modern genres like praise and worship, is that it allows you to directly set prose without resorting to paraphrasing. I think this song sets the Hail Mary pretty well.

    It's saccharine, by no more so than Jesus My Lord My God My All. I think the weakest line in the text is "gentle Mother, peaceful dove" - I don't think "dove" is a traditional image for Mary. I think this is a forced rhyme for "love", but we're picking at small details here.

    Blessed are you among women,
    Blest in turn all women, too,
    Blessed they with peaceful spirits.
    Blessed they with gentle hearts.


    So- what makes all women “blessed”? It also seems to underplay the Blessed Mother’s sinlessness by making all women likewise “blessed.”


    I've played this song multiples dozens of times and have never had this interpretation cross my mind. It seems obvious to me that the idea conveyed by these lines is: Mary is the greatest creature God has ever created. All women have something in common with God's creation that all men do not. The last two lines paraphrase the Beatitudes referencing ones Mary particularly examplifies.

    Every congregation I have ever played for loves singing this song.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,496
    Anecdatum: I've never found *congregational* engagement with HMGW strong - at best, middling.