frogman
id love to tell you that your wrong but my experiences are quite similar to yours. Whats really bad about two thirds of the church emptying out before vs 1 of the closing hymn is sung, is that the remaing third are so confused they quit singing.
its all very annoying and really makes me want to chuck the closing hymn entirely. I already quit playing postludes because they were ,at best, merely something to talk over.

We sang yesterday Salve Regina at the end, everyone stayed including the priest. We felt so Catholic and proud to be Catholic! (because we sing this everyweek, people know it.)

What I heard from many parishioners is that they are very tired of singing so much on Sunday Mass, and by the end of the Mass they just had enough of singing for the day and want to exit out as soon as they can. Maybe musicians are expecting so much music from average people to sing. (even good things if there are too much, people have hard time taking them.) Manybe it's the quality not the quantity that music directors to think about to help people sing.

Also it makes me think that the Sunday Mass we have in many parishes is a mixture of High and low Mass (or neither by the same tocken)asking people to sing both Ordinaries AND the hymns, leaving not much place for choir and listening. Maybe there is much more room and proper places for hymns other than in Mass?

I have never seen it as an either/or situation. It's entirely possible to have good hymns and good propers. BTW, not every proper composed is worth doing. There are some awful propers out there, too.

I was shocked longtime ago when I found out the sad truth that music is not so important part of daily life in most people. I studied music almost all my life and taught. I expected people have respect for music and care for good music. Not many people have time to care for good music in general, sacred or secular. Music is just a past time thing and entertainment in these days, something to listen to while driving a car, or relax, and maybe once in awhile go to a pop or classical concert.
Music directors work hard and proud of organizing good music and hymns every week. And they expect that people would respond to their efforts. Some do. But the idea of coming to Mass for most people is not about singing so many hymns and struggling through unfamiliar tunes and hard words (musicians might think they can pick up tunes after couple of verses, but unfortunately their ears are not tuned so much into this kind of serious music. That's why contemporary pop-sacro music is popluar, because they can follow tunes easily, and texts are also pretty simple. I really feel people are asked to sing way too much in the Mass in many parishes. No one here is against good hymns, but musicians can consider reducing the number of hymns in the Mass, and finding the proper places for the respect of the hymns and encouraging the people to sing them, not forcing them. Also train the choir to a higher level so they can provide beautiful music through which people can truly lift their hearts and experience the beauty. I know some people with conscience will pick up the hymnals, because priests said repeatedly that if we don't, we are not participating. If we keep pushing hymn singing, pop -sacro hymns will prevail, because that's what average people are used to and therefore can do without much struggling during Mass.
Trying to have people sing so many hymns are not the way to gain respect for good hymns or singing in general.

There's no respect for hymns sung during entrance and final processions, if there's no respect for the processions.

The disrespect may be more fundamental than the lack of respect for the hymn. Where there is great respect for Our Eucharistic Lord in the Tabernacle, this respect can overflow into other aspects of worship as well as into parish life. The general lack of good catechesis about what Holy Mass is about often has a companion namely zero catechesis on music in the life of the Church -- the Propers, chant in general, and metrical hymnody. When a congregation does not realise that every Mass is a miracle ... oy vey.

FNJ, good observation.

Why don't Catholics "honor" the hymn?

Couple of reasons I can think of. One, the hymn is really not proper to the rite. Those who really care about the rite cannot give full and unqualified support (at least on a week to week to week basis) to what is basically a compromise or a "stand in" for what should really be going on, and that is, of course, the sung propers for the day.

Second, for those who have decided in their wisdom that the music of the church is best conceived and presented as an entertaining (as in catchy) quasi pop (of whatever flavor) format - those folks HATE hymns for the most part, and see a hymn, especially an "old" hymn as assailing that which they hold sacred, i.e. their right to be entertained by their "flavor of the month" pop format 'hit" selection. Haugen, for one, is called upon, or "allowed" (tolerated) to be utilized in this context because of his unabashed political correctness (don't you just love the "God wants God's people to do God's will" sort of phraseology!!) and as way of throwing those hymn requesters a "bone." "See, we are traditional, we just sang a "hymn" for goodness sake," now leave us be and let us get back to our "jazz mass." Interesting take on the "jazz mass" of this church, taken from the youtube notes:

"Redeemer's annual Jazz Mass is held on the last Sunday before Lent. It is our Mardi Gras celebration before the contemplative season of Lent begins."

This gives the idea of the "calender" of the liturgical year a whole new facelift. Wonder how many wore costumes to this celebration. Interesting the choice of the word "contemplative" as the description for Lenten season.



Hymns are fine, but no way do they compare with a sung propers in our liturgies. I agree with FNJ's basic premise that it is particularly egregious to use the hymn as "walkup" parade music, as as soon as father's feet touch the santuary, slam bam the hymn is over regardless of the verse. Jarring, but here, in the case of this hymn, I could make an exception.

By the way, in case anyone didn't read the details of that YouTube page, the "jazz mass" was not at a Catholic church.

Well, it was well understood here as to whose mass it was/wasn't

There it is on the page, Catholics commenting and explaining that they feel more Episcopal or want to convert there, or our church (local Catholic) is almost as liberal.

Well sure, and I had just edited my posting to pull back from a litany of "more liberal than thou's" regarding present day Lutheranism and Episcopalianism vs "out there" Catholicism that were, let's say, not quite in the spirit of VII ecumenism. And I promised JT to behave myself. But the "not a Catholic church" evidence is there for those who know what to look for.

Here, as one pointed out, (irony of ironies) is the tell-tale intact communion rail The Lutheran penned PC hymn just gets one close to a determination. The "jazz mass" is not so Catholic, more L or E. Catholics have more "gospel masses." The real give away, is just as FNJ says with his lead off, the respect for hymnody. Also the more or less "robust" organ playing leading the hymn is untypical of Catholic churches, (no offense meant to Catholic organists who would approach a hymn exactly this way, or perhaps use another effective approach). Also the altar girls in black Roman cassock and surplice is not typical of Catholic churches that employ altar girls, they would usually be albed. And the altar servers probably would not sing as (hate to say robust again, but) robustly.

A sort of Catechism

"The tunes of these hymns, which are often sung in the language of the people, are memorized with almost no effort or labor. The mind grasps the words and the music. They are frequently repeated and completely understood. Hence even boys and girls, learning these sacred hymns at a tender age, are greatly helped by them to know, appreciate and memorize the truths of the faith. Therefore they also serve as a sort of catechism."

Chrism says "Here's Musicae Sacrae (1955) on extra-liturgical hymns:"

miacoyne, I believe that English is a second language for you, and for even myself and other native speakers, it is not always so clear what is being said or suggested, but here I believe the key word is extra-liturgical, which would suggest "not of, or not in the liturgy" but for other uses, perhaps, or maybe I am not reading this correctly.

So the question for me: Are hymns being referred to as "extra-liturgical" because of their application outside of the mass, IOW, not to be used in the liturgy (as a rule) or are hymns, by definition, extra-liturgical - and this would then be a sort of redundancy - in which case this would suggest the sanctioning (allowing) for liturgical use an extra-liturgical element. Really I don't know - so if anyone

Hymns are traveling music in the Latin Rite. When Father gets where he's going, you're supposed to stop. I know there are wonderful exceptions, but they are just that - exceptions.

Where I play on Saturdays, the priest leaves through the side to the sacristy. As soon as he's out of sight, all bets are off and the congregation runs away. Heck, when I looked over halfway through the first stanza of Now Thank We All Our God, they were probably already in the parking lot. Those who were left were waiting to purchase candles or read private devotions. No one was looking at "Word and Song."

Maybe I should just play vamps on the organ. (I'm only kidding.)

Hymns, but also, Verses of the Propers are also traveling music.

The Introit, Offertory and Communio Antiphons are to sung, followed by the verses until the procession has ceased.

I consider the fact that the number of verses sung to be limited to the time of the procession to make them traveling music....and traveling music meant, as in hymns being really sung, not in a bad way.

Singing a hymn just to fill time...and if the people are not properly informed what it is and given time to find it, and the introduction is shortened or is just the last line (name that tune, 10 notes from the end) is played and the tempo is inappropriate....

That's traveling music in a bad way especially when they are are following the actions

eft, this is a great way to put it: "Hymns do not "belong" at Mass, they are permitted at Mass (in the USA)."

Thanks Chrism for clarifying it, and what the Church stands for the religious music is very clear.
I was keep thinking about the previous document , and concluded it must mean non-liturgical because the content didn't mention anything about the Mass or Liturgy of the Hour, but aseemblies and gatherings. So it must mean hymns that are not office hymns and non-liturgical.

I have respect for hymns, but I'd like to hear them in the proper places with the respect for the tradition of our Liturgy as EFT says.
People will have respect for hymns when they are in the proper places.

When you think about it, in Mass, there isn't really room for hymns, maybe after the communion is over as a thanksgiving? (of course after the communio is sung)
And after the Mass is over? (Recessional Hymn is not a technically part of the Mass, so I guess you could add. But I still rather sing Salve Regina or other seaonal Gregorian Marian Hymns.)

There are problems of hymn singing in Mass,
first, we need to worry about cutting stanzas, not to have the priest wait. As you know many hymns cannot stop after the 3rd stanzas.

Another one, when you hear protestant style of the German chorale hymns we called 'traditional hymns' are not from the Catholic liturgy. The dominance of the organ is often times over powering the singing. When you hear that kind of hymn singing with 'stunning' organ playing, as posted some another thread,( sometimes you don't even know who is leading who, or who is accompanying who), compare to chant organ accopaniment (when it's done), maybe chant accompaniment sound too humble? (well, Main focus of the Mass is about the Holy Sacrifice he offere to us with humility and love.)
Organ has the highest esteem among other instrument in the Mass, but never overpowering the singing, truly accompanying and supporting, but not dominating the singing in Mass. I believe music directors who are truly called for ministry of the people have a huge responsibility, especially in our time, to help us learn the true meaning of the liturgy. Just folloowing what is done, especailly after Vatican II where many people were confused and set the wrong path, may not be the right way to accomplish that goal.

As I said, there might be a couple of places you can have hymns. Just make sure people are not asked to sing too much, and please always help them to sing the Church's prayers first and have time to listen quietely, and most of all, be abled to focus on Sacrament. Thanks.

Patricia Cecilia. Are you the person who wanted my copies of 'Magnificat' by Porpora? I put my Email address up here, but never heard from you.

They are taking up valuable space around my piano! LOL

Donna Swan

I love all kinds of music. My friend who is in contemporary band says he wants to worship God the way he wants and with the hymns he likes with good guitar chords and all.

Donna's comments are spot on! Those who have a categorical repugnance to hymns at mass probably don't know much about how to play them on real organs, nor what they can add to the liturgy when played and sung artfully by choir and congregation. One is not at all challenging the assertion that the Roman rite has propers, not hymns - and is desirably celebrated thus. However, as has been pointed out above, hymns ARE approved for singing at mass in this country. This, then, makes them by law and custom not totally foreign elements. What is standing in the way of choosing 'proper' hymns and performing them in such manner that they are the fine musical and literary ornaments to the mass that they have the potential for being? They are certainly no more out of place than offertory and communion motets and anthems which, strictly speaking, are equally extraneous to the rite.

An interesting question - or point - Noel. The answer, though, is 'no'. I think that, though (of course) the mass is ended with ite missa est, it does make some sense for a 'proper' hymn to be sung as the sacred ministers depart; and that the same ministers should respect this sacred literary event by participating in it and taking their time departing. A hymn, naturally, is not necessarily the only suitable music for departing. An appropriate organ piece or improvisation is equally suitable. What is totally wrong is the mad rush for the door the moment 'the mass is ended', 'thanks be to God' is said (sung). One gets the impression at some parishes that sacred ministers and people alike really mean 'thanks be to God that it's over'.