Has anyone seen the new Lutheran hymnal?
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,294
    Has anyone seen the new ELCA Lutheran Hymnal? - Evangelical Lutheran Worship. It is truly great, 893 hymns and musical selections. What a tradition! Why can't we have hymnals like this? It's more Catholic than any hymnal we have!
  • a great mystery. One of the greatest of all mysteries.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    You should correct your post. Is it the ELCA hymnal or a Lutheran hymnal? (a little Lutheran humor for you) At any rate, I have the new LCMS hymnal, Lutheran Service Book, and it's a fantastic production. A little bit of bad music made it in, but it's mostly good Lutheran hymnody. A HUGE improvement over Lutheran Worship as well, since it now has sensible harmonizations for hymns.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,294
    I counted 35 chants and chant settings in the first 150 pages. Hymns (good ones) in Eng, German, Swedish,French, Spanish, Vietn., Korean, Latin. Baptism liturgy is right out of our sacramentary. Many liturgy settings, all in good musical arrangments, several in chant style. One setting in a chant-dialogue style (Msgn.Schuler, help us!) Victimae Pachalis, Ubi Caritas in Latin complete, A complete psalter with psalm tones. ALL THE DAILY OFFICES with chant settings. Each selection of hymns under a given section title actually relate to that title of the section (unlike GIA hymnals, where the hymns in the "Eucharist" section have nothing to do with and are in some cases antithetical to the Eucharist) Book is liturgically planned with church year. And need we say? - those great Lutheran chorale tunes. ALL IN FOUR PARTS for the congregation, no orphaned single lines!
    This could be a model. What are WE doing?

  • Catholics have spent billions (is that possible? Maybe) on making and selling hymnals for 50 years and even now there is nothing on the mainstream market that comes close to comparing to what is in the pew at the local Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Episcopal churches right down the street. Sometimes I wonder if anyone at GIA or OCP in charge of this stuff has ever visited another local church outside the Catholic Church just to see what it is like. The gap between the two is vast and embarrassing. We don't even have in print, right now, a decent collection of a few hundreds English hymns in four parts useful for the liturgical year without bowdlerized texts and with good arrangements. My own frustration with OCP happens without fail on a weekly basis: bad arrangements, no arrangements, crazy mixed up wacky arrangements, mismatched texts between missalette and choral edition, missing verses, changed keys, funky rhythms, peculiar typesetting, and, of course, the thing that drives me completely nuts, the strange assumption on the part of Catholic publishers that the people are too ignorant to sing anything other than the the melody, no matter what. The whole enterprise is a mixed up mess.

    Just try an experiment. Take your parish's own hymnal or whatever it is to the local Lutheran music person and see what she or he says about it. It will be something like, "this is your hymnal?" or "but where is your hymnal?"
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I propose that, were there to be a Catholic Hymnal (in the sense of hymnals for other denominations), it would be exactly like the PBC.

    Of course, for an American conference hymnal, it would have the same contents and vernacular and Latin hymns popular in the US. But no, something this simple just won't be done.
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    one particularly aweful hymnal is the one for the SPPX. type setting is great and there are some nice tunes but whoever harmonized them really needs to go into treatment (or first year theory class). very very sloppy on someones part.
    isnt it interesting how the mainline protestants can fit their entire hymnody into a managable hard cover but we catholics have to pile on the dredge (something for everyone etc etc) so much so that accompaniment and choir editions need hydrolifts just to hold them.
  • Don, I think the hymnal you mention is the best thing going too!
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    whats horrible jeffry is that (apart from pbc obviously) it probably IS the best thing going.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,294
    Jeffery, your comments are so right.
    What about a CMAA hymnal? The Parish Book of Chant led the way, now what about a hymnal? I like the Adoremus, but it is rather short. I would be willing to help in any way.
    The really sad thing is how much chant there is in the Episc. and Lutheran hymnals, none in ours.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    See another thread, the CMAA doesn't exist to publish hymnals, run colleges, give certification, etc. It's incumbent upon the members to do that, as Noel, the Cathedral Chant School, and others are doing.

    The PBC IS a hymnal, anyway. That belongs in every Catholic pew worldwide (and I despise the practice of buying it "for the schola" - this is the song of the people!)
  • Well, let me ask this. What if there were a hymnal of only English hymns, mostly in four parts. Few if any English renderings of chant. No Latin obviously since those are covered in PBC. It could be the Parish Book of English Hymns, with 250 four-square hymns. The organ edition would be identical to the pew edition. Again, the people's book would have four parts. It could be a hardback that sells for $10 or so. It is published entirely in Creative Commons and is built on public domain resources. It could even include some new material provided by people on this forum, conditioned on publishing into Creative Commons. It would be a free download too. You could print, copy, publish, or make a smoothie out of it or whatever. It would be the first of its kind.

    would that be something desirable? what are the pluses and minuses of this?
  • <comment class="definitely-unintelligent-but-perhaps-civil">Making a smoothie out of it would be a minus on multiple levels, methinks…&lt/comment>
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Jeff, you just made me drool.
  • really? really? Is it the thing?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,499
    Would English renderings of chant hymns be another book?
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,294
    Well, that seems like a great idea, but two questions come to mind:
    1. Copywright issues
    2. I think it would be good to have a real hymnal, nicely bound like the Adoremus. A copied think off of the internet does not have the permance of a good-looking hymnal.
    3. The title of "Parish Book of Hymns" would be perfect - make it look like a companion to the PBC!! Put both in the pew!
    I think this kind of hymnal with the parts, as Jeffery described is so needed.
  • 1. It would be all public domain material except new material which would be Creative Commons. A gift to the faith.

    2. Unsure about Eng chant hymns. Maybe some?

    3. Had a fantastic phone exchange with Charles Cul today that clarified many things.

    4. CMAA would publish and print but invite any and all people to similarly publish it -- ideally there would be dozens of publisher who would be free to add or take away what they wanted.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,126
    I would buy in a minute. It might be an opportune time, given the number of parishes having to make changes due to the new mass translations. I know personally I am thinking of that in the context of what is coming soon.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    Jeffrey: "4. CMAA would publish and print but invite any and all people to similarly publish it -- ideally there would be dozens of publisher who would be free to add or take away what they wanted."

    "where is hymn ___?"
    "it is in the Parish Book of Hymns"
    "well I cannot find it"
    "oh maybe it is not in your version of Parish Book of Hymns"

    And I thought the OCP-numbers-nightmare Discussion gave me a headache.
  • ideally you wouldn't want dozens of versions in the same parish ;)

    Nor would there by an incentive to change hymn numbers precisely because that would devalue the overall product. In any case, I'm just speculating about a possible future that is nowhere near.

    In any case, the main point is that all of these hymns would be permanently freed into the commons along with their typesetting -- and they are most of the hymns that have stood the test of time.