How to fit Faure Requiem into All Souls Day Mass NO
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,470
    Hello, All Souls falls on a Sunday this year. I am considering doing the Faure Requeim in the Sunday liturgy.
    How would you fit it in? Kyrie, offertory is obvious, where would you pu the Pie Jesu? Etc.
    I dislike doing these works as a concert.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 513
    Faure took artistic liberties with some of the texts, so you may not be able to use all parts of it during Mass.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,065
    There are a number of issues to be worked out:
    - Changes in the NO: Introit is joined to the Kyrie; Agnus Dei has different text ("qui tollis peccata mundi, dona eis requiem . . . sempiternam")
    - As SponsaChrsti alludes to it, texts are modified or incomplete: Faure set only part of the offertory text to music, and the text he did set is modified; no "Benedictus" in the Sanctus

    For the "Pie Jesu" and "Libera me," one could be placed at communion and the other as a prelude.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 513
    Amusingly enough, Faure’s Pie Jesu is popular on wedding ceremony music albums.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,856
    I just would not do it unless you’re told to do it or have no scruples left to give. Not to stir the pot, but I think that it does not make a lot of sense.
    Thanked by 2francis tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 11,066
    I tend to agree with Matthew Roth. The Faure, (including many of the other large scale requiems) often diverge from the official text. In my mind they really are just concert pieces.

    Having composed a few requiems myself, I wrestled with what is appropriate and not for the NO. I wound up only composing liturgical music for the TLM Requiem. I am working on a Requiem in English (I have a thread presently seeking the most authentic English translation), but it will utilize the official texts without aberration. One reason I’m composing it is to bring to the Novus Ordo world, a rendition of the requiem that really shows the beauty of the official texts, and offer a worthwhile orchestral/choral setting in English that is liturgical. The title will be Requiem for All Souls.

    samples
    http://myopus.com/preview/eternalRest2025.mp4
    http://bizextend.com/transfer/lambOfGod.mp4
    http://bizextend.com/transfer/committal.mp4
  • CGM
    Posts: 745
    I used to work at a parish where we did the Fauré Requiem every year at a special Novus Ordo Mass on All Souls Day, as a commemoration of all the people who had died in the parish over the past twelve months.

    It was celebrated like this:

    — Introit (mvt.1) as Introit, but end it at the start of the Kyrie. Celebrant's greeting; spoken Confiteor by all, then
    — Kyrie (mvt.1) as Kyrie
    — after 1st reading, a choral Responsorial Psalm setting of Ps. 23 (wasn't by Fauré)
    — after 2nd reading, the Pie Jesu (mvt.4) as a sequence before the Alleluia
    — an Alleluia from the Graduale Simplex (verse in English — not by Fauré)
    — O Domine Jesu Christe (mvt.2, the Offertoire) as Offertory
    — Sanctus (mvt.3) as Sanctus
    — Agnus Dei (mvt.5) as Agnus Dei, but end it before the start of the Lux aeterna.
    — Lux aeterna (mvt.5) as Communion I, followed by
    — Libera me (mvt.6) as Communion II
    — In paradisum (mvt.7) as Recessional

    There are a number of suitable settings of Ps. 23 at CCWatershed, here.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 729
    after 2nd reading, the Pie Jesu (mvt.4) as a sequence before the Alleluia


    Is this licit?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,866
    @trentonjconn I presume this was following MR2, where a suitable song could be sung before the Gospel. The DM at the Cathedral (Nick Gale RIP) would use a suitable song, it would just happen to be one of the former sequences appointed for the day.

    Licit I think not, although it would be very far from the worst thing to happen at a N.O. Requiem.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,856
    And after I wrote that article, Mgr Wadsworth pointed out that it was probably written to be sung over the low Mass, a custom which did not really survive into the 20th century as far as I can tell; this is in addition to the negative reception of the mass setting by the Madeleine clergy!
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  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 513

    I tend to agree with Matthew Roth. The Faure, (including many of the other large scale requiems) often diverge from the official text. In my mind they really are just concert pieces


    As someone who sings in a professional chorus and performs such music, I wouldn’t even want that at Mass. I prefer the traditional Latin Requiem Propers, over these elaborate Requiem Masses. They don’t even make any liturgical sense. The style doesn’t fit the function or texts.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,233
    Moreover, the TLM propers (and Ordinary) emphasize the reality of death and of hope for salvation. The music illuminates the occasion with its spare understatement. Not without hope, of course, particularly the last few lines of the Dies Irae, the plea of the final Agnus Dei, and the marvelous major-key recessional-to-the-temporary-grave In Paradisum.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,557
    But note that the OP refers specifically to All Souls day. We are not considering a funeral. And Fauré was wanting to write something quite different from the Gregorian Requiem, with which he was of course very familiar.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,856
    Was he? He wrote this setting after the refoundation of Solesmes but one wonders, as I alluded, what actual practice was.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,557
    As to my Requiem, perhaps I have also instinctively sought to escape from what is thought right and proper, after all the years of accompanying burial services on the organ! I know it all by heart. I wanted to write something different.
  • francis
    Posts: 11,066
    As to my Requiem, perhaps I have also instinctively sought to escape from what is thought right and proper, after all the years of accompanying burial services on the organ! I know it all by heart. I wanted to write something different.
    interesting quote. What is the source?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,856
    That suggests that he was the accompanist, but given what he actually composed (i.e. something not really usable at the high Mass), it’s not clear what he was actually doing (like, what I really want to know is what Mocquereau or even Pothier thought of the “right and proper practice at the time”…)
  • CaleferinkCaleferink
    Posts: 445
    In any case, you might check with St. James Cathedral in Seattle. They’ve done choral Requiems in a NO setting for a long time, so you might find out how they’ve done it. I don’t usually recommend their liturgical practices in general, but their choral program is up there with BNSIC, IMHO.
  • I am considering doing this for our All Souls Day mass of remembrance, along similar lines to what @CGM lays out above, though probably minus the Pie Jesu “sequence.” I’d prefer some other use for the Pie Jesu, perhaps as a post-communion meditation.

    That being said, I also tend to agree Fauré’s setting is probably not the best to use for mass, if we’re looking for settings other than the original chants. In that genre, I would far prefer the Duruflé Requiem, though it is a tad more difficult both for the choir and the organ.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,557
    @francis Wkipedia, article here
    citing Orledge, Robert (1979). Gabriel Fauré. p115
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen