Licensing terms of Nova Vulgata
  • Xopheros
    Posts: 44
    When setting bible texts to music, it can be cumbersome and difficult to obtain a permission for using a modern translation. For instance, I once obtained the permission for a psalm verse from the German "Einheitsübersetzung", but failed to obtain it for the Magnificat. I eventually purchased an antiquarian edition of a 19th century translation (by Allioli), which I now use as a basis for setting German bible texts.

    As the official Latin bible translation in the Catholic Church is the "Nova Vulgata", I wonder whether it may be used as a basis for musical settings. Not that I believe that anyone would bother or be offended by a musical setting of some verses, but it would be nevertheless interesting to know whether its license permits this.

    Background: I am currently considering adjusting some of my settings to the officially approved bible text (most notably "Tollite portas", where the old Vulgata translation is weird and not consistent with the original text and thus departs from all other translations), and it would be great to be sure that there are no copyright issues with this.
  • Simon
    Posts: 163
    We - the Psalterium Foundation in The Netherlands - recorded the whole Psalter in Gregoriian Chant using the Nova Vulgata from2012-2018.. We even published these psalms and the Antiphons for each psalm in a separate book along with the CD-Box of12 CDs of all the recorded psalms with antiphons. We only include an acknowlegement on the first page of the book of online text source for the psalms - never asked any permission. No comments ever heard from Vatican publishers over copyright issues. See: ww.psalterium.nl. Why would or should they protest? We're just spreading the Good Word. The Church should be glad in all these ways to evangelizie the world.We are a not for profit Foundation under Dutch law. All proceeds go to new Gregorian chant projects. Our next edition? See: www.gengulphus.com
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,560
    "Tollite portas", where the old Vulgata translation is weird and not consistent with the original text and thus departs from all other translations)
    How do we know what the 'original text' was? The Vulgata agrees with LXX, and translate as
    Lift up your gates, you princes, and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in.
    whereas the more modern "expert" versions translate as
    Lift up your heads, O gates, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in.

    I have never understood the latter (gates do not have heads), while the vulgate makes clear sense. My money is on the Septuagint, which I believe is the oldest text/translation we have, rather than the Hebrew versions which I understand have the innovation of vowel pointing made later.
    Thanked by 3Liam CHGiffen tomjaw
  • DCM
    Posts: 84
    "Lift up your heads, O gates" is supported by Jerome's translation of the Hebrew (4th c), and the Syriac (2nd c.). It's important to note that modern translations aren't simply taking the Masoretic text for granted but are performing textual criticism to find the best supported versions of the text.

    The image is "a metaphoric expression for joyously welcoming God, pictured as a victorious king returning home to his palace" (Jewish Study Bible, NJPS translation). "[T]hey are like a council of elders, bowed down and anxious, awaiting the return of the army and the great warrior gone to battle." (NABRE)
  • Xopheros
    Posts: 44
    @Simon Thanks for the pointer to your psalterium project. The sample recordings are great.
    Why would or should they protest?

    This is a pragmatic approach, and for the Nova Vulgata it is likely to be viable. The German bishops, however, make it clear that neither the modern "Einheitsübersetzung" nor other liturgic texts may be reprinted without permission (note that musical settings are even derived works, which requires a permission in any case according to copyright law). Unless the texts are in the public domain, of course, for which they list as examples the German translations of the Lord's Prayer and the Ave Maria.

    That's why I am asking, although I am aware that asking the question might not be a good idea, because it can lead to negative answer ;-)
  • GerardH
    Posts: 557
    For what it's worth, the Antiphonale Romanum I & II both list
    © 1998, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, Citta del Vaticano, pour les textes extraits de la Nova Vulgata Bibliorum Sacrorum Editio.
    Perhaps it is possible to inquire with the LEV about what permission is required.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,560
    DCM, thanks, I know I am oversimplifying, and venturing into a field in which I have no expertise, but when it came to deciding which competing meaning to include in his Vulgata, which did Jerome choose ?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,868
    @a_f_hawkins I suspect modern experts forget they are standing on the shoulders of giants. I also suspect that no one knows what manuscripts St Jerome had in his possession or had read. I think he may have had access to many manuscripts that no longer exist. I also find it VERY hard to believe that we have manuscripts from sources that St Jerome had no knowledge of...

    Also I thought that the council of Trent demanded that WE accept that the Vulgate is the inerrant Word of God? So if the Vulgate is the errant Word of God, can the neo-vulgate also be a 'different' inerrant Word of God, or is it just a good translation?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,309
    Trent only defined the inerrancy of the Vulgate in terms of faith and morals.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,888
    The German bishops are insane (water is wet). But they should license it like ICEL does to those who come along in good faith to compose liturgical music. If you pay the fees and play ball, or at least try to play ball, they work with you, as far as I can tell. And they have fairly generous reproduction terms for individual Masses and the Divine Office or other rites. (Differences between the Romano-Germanic civil tradition and the common-law tradition of the Anglosphere don’t matter, I don’t think, in how generous they can be while retaining the copyright and asserting their rights as needed.)

    I understand the impulse to use a (supposedly) more correct text, but the original text of the LXX wasn’t the Masoretic, and where the Vulgate departs from the latter somewhat significantly, the LXX also tends to do so, and I simply am astounded that anyone would wish to get caught up in using a copyrighted text when no one is going to object to using Jerome’s Vulgate, because it’s still the text and there are no legal issues surrounding it. Plus, and I’ll have to find the example, but the LXX and Vulgate readings that scholars tend to get upset about aren’t really improved in the NV; very, very, very few of the changed passages are truly made obscure in the Vulgate, and as for the example in ps 126 (I think it’s 126, and not 127), who cares, it’s the text that we received.

    "Lift up your heads, O gates" is supported by Jerome's translation of the Hebrew (4th c), and the Syriac (2nd c.). It's important to note that modern translations aren't simply taking the Masoretic text for granted but are performing textual criticism to find the best supported versions of the text.


    as perhaps the biggest fan in the Anglosphere of Winkworth’s translation of the German hymn sung in the closing weeks of Advent to FREYLINGHAUSEN (and not TRURO), I’m stuck with two translations from different sources (I would love to use said hymn for the Rorate Mass recessional!, putting the contrast into even greater relief), but all that the translation according to the Hebrew means that the Hebrew of Jerome’s day differed from the source of the LXX used to translate the psalter into Latin and that the Syriac tradition also reflected this, but who knows which reading is original. There’s also a tendency to assume that we maintained original readings when they match the post-Temple Hebrew tradition, when it could also be that people noticed discrepancies and then changed their own texts…or, if we wish to be more reserved, that both readings have always co-existed.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,868
    @Liam Thanks as I suspected the Vulgate is the inerrant Word of God, and the neo-vulgate is just a good translation decided by a few experts, based on the latest research in back before 1979.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,309
    It's only inerrant in terms of faith and morals, not necessarily in terms of quality of translation in any other respect. "Princes" vs "heads" falls outside faith and morals.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,560
    Being the inerrant word of God does not mean that God may not inspire authors to write parable, or poetic allegory in the OT. Although some people seem to think so. We see plenty from the incarnate Word in the NT.