Papal remarks on polyphony and Palestrina
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,856
    I missed this in the bollettino this morning! The pope spoke at an event for the Fondazione Domenico Bartolucci to honor the 500th anniversary of the birth of Palestrina.

    The Italian is here. Catholic Sat provides an English translation on social media.

    We’re so back?!
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,451
    Thanks to Pope Leo for this insightful message about our choral patrimony. I often think of polyphony and other choral settings as sacred shrines for the texts housed in them.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,058
    Before we get ahead of ourselves, please keep in mind that this message was spoken on a celebratory occasion, where one would expect some kind words. Pope Francis probably made similar comments on such occasions.

    In that context, two parts stood out for me (emphasis mine):

    The effect of this dynamic unity in diversity - a metaphor for our common journey of faith under the guidance of the Holy Spirit - is to help the listener to enter ever more deeply into the mystery expressed by the words, responding, where appropriate, with responses or in alternatim.
    Precisely thanks to this richness of form and content, the Roman polyphonic tradition, in addition to having left us an immense heritage of art and spirituality, continues to be even today, in the musical field, a point of reference to look to, albeit with the necessary adaptations, in sacred and liturgical composition, so that through singing "the faithful participate fully, consciously and actively in the liturgy" (Sacrosanctum Concilium 14), with profound involvement of voice, mind and heart.


    The pope certainly hints that the heritage of polyphony as is is not entirely sufficient to fulfill its musical function within the liturgy. The vocal participation of the faithful seems important to him.
  • davido
    Posts: 1,072
    Popes have speechwriters, correct?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,303
    No need to fisk a la George Weigel's infamous same-day fisking of Caritas in Veritate.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,856
    Before we get ahead of ourselves, please keep in mind that this message was spoken on a celebratory occasion, where one would expect some kind words. Pope Francis probably made similar comments on such occasions.


    You fundamentally misunderstood this address, how Leo works and how his predecessor operated.

    Pope Francis never ever said a nice thing about this subject. He only spoke vaguely about sacred music. He never praised polyphony and above all Palestrina in terms that BXVI would recognize. Francis would never allow himself to be pinned down on a topic with such comments. I can find two addresses by the pope on sacred music. Neither get into details. He doesn’t single out polyphony as being of great importance. He doesn’t even mention chant (keep in mind that both the papal Mass and the conventual Mass of Saint Peter’s Basilica decayed under Francis…)

    Leo didn’t have to deliver these remarks as is! They reflect his thinking even if they are written by someone else, which is the same as with an encyclical. It would be fundamentally dishonest for the pope to deliver this address in this form if he didn’t read and approve the text and if he is unwilling to be reminded of what he said in the future.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,215
    But Mr. Van Roode is fundamentally correct insofar as the speech framed itself in the context of the time. His highlighted text reveals a hedging toward Vatican II and its problem of "Participation".

    i agree, Francis would have never said any of this. He was too gauche to even recognize the patrimony. But Leo cannot remove himself the current epoque.

    Lets receive the words beautifully.

    i am very happy he said what he did. Its all good.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I think we cant jump to conclusions just yet. Its still too early to know anything. In any case, the Pope has to act prudently and slowly if he is going to do anything in our hoped for direction.
    Thanked by 2kevinf CHGiffen
  • G
    Posts: 1,392
    I read this and my heart sang a Te Deum, or as much a
    s my mind could remember pre-caffeination
    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,856
    I think that acknowledging that at papal Masses we might get a polyphonic Gloria but not the Sanctus per the rubrics of the NOM. But, for example, at papal Masses, the introit verses have long been polyphonic despite the fact that those would be easier for the faithful to sing than the introit itself, yet the chant is in the booklet.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 513
    Pope Francis probably made similar comments on such occasions.

    Yes. See attached file.
    DEA6FAFF-F7FC-4185-82FD-55C66ED365DC.jpeg
    2160 x 1554 - 1M
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,856
    You can make whatever you want out of that comment given that he never actually did anything that worked in our favor.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 11,066
    Chill y’all. The popes don’t run the choirs. YOU own the baton. Keep composing, conducting and let the beauty resound… otherwise the very stones will cry out.
  • Anna_BendiksenAnna_Bendiksen
    Posts: 257
    It is a little-known fact that every Anglican choirmaster's desk features the words "papae choros non gubernant" worked in intarsia.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,058
    Pope Francis probably made similar comments on such occasions.

    Yes. Address to the Scholae Cantorum of the Italian Saint Cecilia Association, September 28, 2019.
    Together you can devote yourselves better to song as an integral part of the Liturgy, with Gregorian chant inspiring you as the first model. Take care together for artistic and liturgical preparation, and promote the presence of the schola cantorum in every parish community. In fact, the choir guides the assembly, and with its own specific repertoire, is a skilled voice of spirituality, of community, of tradition, and of liturgical culture. I recommend that you help the whole people of God to sing, with conscious and active participation and in the Liturgy. This is important: closeness to the people of God.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,856
    Those are not similar comments.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,058
    Address to participants in the International Conference on Sacred music, March 4, 2017.

    Active and conscious participation consists, therefore, in knowing how to enter profoundly into this mystery [of God], in knowing how to contemplate, adore and welcome it, in grasping its sense, thanks in particular to religious silence and to the “musicality of the language with which the Lord speaks to us”. It is precisely in this perspective that reflection on the renewal of sacred music and its precious contribution moves.

    In this regard, a two-fold mission emerges which the Church is called to follow, especially through those who in various ways work in this area. On the one hand it calls for safeguarding and enhancing the rich and manifold patrimony inherited from the past, balancing it with the present and avoiding the risk of a nostalgic or “archaeological” outlook. On the other hand, it is necessary to ensure that sacred music and liturgical chant be fully “inculturated” in the artistic and musical language of the current time; namely, that they are able to incarnate and translate the Word of God into song, sound and harmony capable of making the hearts of our contemporaries resonate, also creating an appropriate emotional climate which disposes people to faith and stirs openness and full participation in the mystery being celebrated.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,058
    Address to members of the “Alunni del Cielo” Association, November 10, 2018.

    Singing well requires commitment and good will, but it is a gratifying effort, because it elevates the soul making, it more receptive to the voice of the Spirit, especially when your hymns accompany liturgical celebrations, allowing the faithful a greater rapprochement and deeper intimacy with God. In this way you help to express joy, trust, repentance, love ... Singing is a language that leads to the communion of hearts; I thank you in particular because, crossing every border, you spread a message of peace and fraternity.

    In the choir one experiences the joy and charm of polyphony. I urge you to be “polyphonic” in everyday life too, both among yourselves and with others.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,856
    Those are not similar comments.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,058
    Address to the Third International Meeting of Choirs in the Vatican, November 24, 2018.

    Your music and your song are a true instrument of evangelization to the measure in which you bear witness to the depth of the Word of God which touches people’s hearts and allows a celebration of the sacraments, in particular of the Holy Eucharist, which enables one to perceive the beauty of Paradise. Never cease in this task so important for the life of our communities; in this way, through song, you give voice to the emotions that are deep in each person’s heart. In moments of joy and in sadness, the Church is called to always be close to people, to offer them the companionship of faith. How often music and song make these moments unique in people’s lives, because they preserve them as a precious memory that has marked their existence.

    In formulating the renewal of the liturgy, the Second Vatican Council emphasized that “the musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value” (Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium, 112). Indeed it is.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,058
    Address to the Fourth International Meeting of Choirs in the Vatican, June 8, 2024.

    You are custodians of a centuries-old treasure of art, beauty, and spirituality. Do not let the mentality of the world taint it with self-interest, ambition, jealousy, or division, for such things, as you know, can infiltrate the life of choirs as well as communities, making them places that are no longer joyful but sad and burdensome, even leading to their disintegration. To this end, it will be good for you to maintain the lofty spiritual tenor of your vocation through prayer and meditation on the word of God, participating in the liturgies you animate not only with your voices but also with your minds and hearts, and by enthusiastically living your daily lives accordingly, so that your music may increasingly be a joyful self-offering to God, who with his love attracts, enlightens, and transforms everything (cf. 1 Cor 13:1-13). In this way, you will fulfil the exhortation of Saint Augustine: “Let us praise the Lord with our lives and our tongues, with hearts and mouths, with our voices and our behaviour” (Sermo 256).
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,058
    The purpose of the plethora of quotations by Pope Francis is to make clear that he actually did make similar comments about sacred music on multiple occasions, and that the similarity is about a pattern. While the actual words and messages may differ from occasion to occasion, depending on the audience, there is a pattern of acknowledging the value of the patrimony of sacred music and explaining its current place in liturgical celebrations on the one hand, and, on the other hand, emphasizing that the Church needs new music all the time.

    In that sense, the message of Pope Leo isn’t something entirely new, but follows this general pattern. I'll leave it a that. I’m quite happy that the Pope did address sacred music, and especially polyphony, this early in his pontificate.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,856
    I understand what the point is. What you do not understand is that he did not make similar comments. He spoke about sacred music. But (and I repeat myself, again):

    Pope Francis never ever said a nice thing about this subject. He only spoke vaguely about sacred music. He never praised polyphony and above all Palestrina in terms that BXVI would recognize. Francis would never allow himself to be pinned down on a topic with such comments. I can find two addresses by the pope on sacred music. Neither get into details. He doesn’t single out polyphony as being of great importance. He doesn’t even mention chant (keep in mind that both the papal Mass and the conventual Mass of Saint Peter’s Basilica decayed under Francis…)

    Leo didn’t have to deliver these remarks as is! They reflect his thinking even if they are written by someone else, which is the same as with an encyclical. It would be fundamentally dishonest for the pope to deliver this address in this form if he didn’t read and approve the text and if he is unwilling to be reminded of what he said in the future.


    The tone and content are fundamentally different. Francis only says briefly, in terms of committing to a position, that they should be inspired by chant. But he doesn’t get into specifics of what that means, whereas Leo has publicly committed himself to supporting polyphony by means of technical comments on the nature of polyphony.

    Reading Leo through Francis is a project doomed to fail, because Francis was a master politician, saying things that anyone could use but only had one real meaning at the end of the day (not just his own, but one where the conservatives were either grasping at straws or were the actual targets of his rage), and because he just was not that intelligent and cultured. Sometimes, yes, he had interesting insights, but he did not actually engage in intellectual activity like his three immediate predecessors (JP1 died after thirty-three days, but he wasn’t a dummy).

    Francis actively allowed the degradation of the conventual Mass of the Vatican Basilica, because he placed a guy as archpriest based purely on vibes, and between him and the sostituto, the basilica has crumbled, all while the former spends extravegently with no one stopping him…and of course, certain things are visible to Jubilee pilgrims only, so there’s that too. Insanity.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,215
    Can we just commit memoriae damnatio regarding Francis?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 288
    Palestrina actually wrote alternatim masses while in Mantua. Has anyone ever used / performed them?
  • francis
    Posts: 11,066
    renewal of sacred music and its precious contribution…
    this is the foundation of the true problem with this mindset… it NEVER needs renewing… sacred music (that is authentic) is pristine in its inception.. it just needs to be handed on from generation to generation while new forms that find its roots in the same should be encouraged. BTW… this is true also with the liturgy itself. It also never needed “renewing”. The word ‘Renewal’ is a cloaked attack on anything Catholic.

    The thing that is REALLY happening is a resurgence… a resurgence of faith and tradition. That is the “R” word that will really make a difference and is the true beacon of hope for our church.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw