Modifications (and re-prohibitions) on the Alleluia and Great Amen -- where did it start?
  • mikecharliebravo
    Posts: 1
    Hello all,

    This last Pentecost mass was... a bit of a doozy. For context, I am a student organist at my Newman center, and a rather... interesting integration of musical choices were made by our Charismatic priest and other directors (for da youth, of course), including starting off the mass with CCM/praise and worship and having a CCM/praise and worship set post-communion. Perhaps you can also help me with this-- whether or not it counts as liturgical abuse-- but rather than this turning into a liturgical abuse discussion, there are some things that have bugged me on top of those.

    The mass setting we use (a hodgepodge of Mass of Glory and Mass of Saint Ann along with student compositions) utilizes a pre-2011 rendering of the Alleluia and Great Amen which included words "Alleluia, give the glory and the honor..." or "Amen, amen, alleluia, amen". I am rather sure that this is not permitted, but it would be rather propitious if I could be pointed in the direction of where it is prohibited, or when it became prohibited.

    Thank you!

    mcb
  • Mattspmusic0320
    Posts: 77
    While these things, in my opinion, are not liturgically correct I don't think you would win a fight over this. If a priest is this comfortable taking these kinds of liberties you can't convince them to change. You would be doing more harm to your own mental health and spiritual disposition trying to change a dysfunctional "liturgist" than if you were to begin moving on to a new place that may be more receptive to your skills and abilities.

    A better route to go is to have "better" solutions ready to go. Instead of Mass of St. Ann or Mass of Glory, perhaps recommend a setting like Mass of Renewal? It still has a contemporary aesthetic, but does not butcher the ritual text. While Renewal is not my cup of tea, I can stomach it, especially is you get the accompanying string parts.

    You might also look at this list from the Diocese of Covington: https://covdio.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Approved-Mass-Settings-Memo-2023.pdf
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores mikecharliebravo
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,282
    Those modifications in text (along with "troped" versions of the Lamb of God) became a thing (in terms of published musical settings of the vernacular Ordinary) in the later 1980s into the 1990s, but they were never licit to begin with. Part of the culture of the period was that many worked an environment where the then-existing Missal texts were under a very prolonged period of revision, and it wasn't clear where the final version of the revision would land . . . until 2011. Because all complete musical Mass settings had to be resubmitted for review and approval for accuracy of text in a relatively compact period of time - instead of the generation of iterative one-off approvals that preceded it - 2011 turned out to be the pivot where the USCCB ceased to wink at those illicit modifications to text, and *effectively* required conformity to the published Missal text of the Ordinary.

    There has been no licit ground to continue using outdated texts for half generation now, as they were never licit to begin with (it's just that the powers that be - other than individual bishops who acted proactively - never saw fit to lower the boom on them before 2011).

    All that said, a pastor who has not cared to change anything by now is unlikely to be moved by argument. The most effective approach would be to introduce worthy licit settings to eventually displace them. (For an example of why I used that conjunction: Mass of Christ the Savior would be licit, but (quite) unworthy.)
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen ServiamScores mikecharliebravo
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,798
    Get the bishop on it. Bishops have in recent years become very concerned with student ministry, and a good bishop will not put up with liturgical goofiness. Now the bishop himself isn’t the person to address directly. You need to work it up to a cleric with some authority who has the bishop’s ear and one who understands the actual problem — in my diocese a memo would go out about this (I say without question, but I don’t want to be too bold).
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen LauraKaz mikecharliebravo AgnusDei1989
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,282
    The diocesan office of worship is the usual deputy for intake of questions. How long it takes and how it would be resolved is . . . variable. One never starts well with any whiff of blaming or undermining clerics, as that would probably make positive resolution more . . . distant.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,798
    Meh

    I think that in this specific case you have to go through the back channels and an office of worship is not going to understand the issue or want to fix it.

    My diocese does not as far as I can tell have an office of worship (certain memos that come out from such in a typical diocese come from the vicar general himself on behalf of the bishop), and our diocesan director of campus ministry, a priest who is a pastor and who has served as a campus chaplain, would not permit this. So we’re very unusual, but if it made it up the chain that this was a problem, there’d be a diocesan-wide memo.

    This is not even a question either. It’s something that needs to be fixed. Of course, I think that you have to get it in front of the chaplain first. But this is pretty egregious even by charismatic standards.
    Thanked by 2Liam CHGiffen
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 322
    One of the best things other than the translation itself when it was implemented was the cracking down on these embellishments. It was the wild west for several decades under the old translation. Heck, in the U.S., we even had a non-sanctioned Memorial Acclamation: “Christ has died…”

    Could you have a meeting with all involved parties where you express your concerns? It might be a good idea to sit everyone down and explain your POV. If that’s not possible, maybe a face-to-face meeting with just the priest?
    Thanked by 2MatthewRoth Liam
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,174
    "Christ has died...." was my favorite Memorial Acclamation.
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins Roborgelmeister
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 452
    Heck, in the U.S., we even had a non-sanctioned Memorial Acclamation: “Christ has died…”


    That was used in a lot more English-speaking places than the USA - and still pops up in some of them sometimes.

    Ireland also had "My Lord and my God".
    Thanked by 1Roborgelmeister
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,546
    Ireland still has "My Lord and my God" according to my missal, even in the Roman Canon.
    Thanked by 1Roborgelmeister
  • Diapason84
    Posts: 113
    Unpleasant memories, like phantasms, are coming back to me of John Foley SJ's "Give glory to God in the highest" in that merciless 6/4.
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