Another internecine war
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,211
    3 weeks ago my Pastor was removed from the parish. He was removed because a group of people (about 10-15) got the ear of the Archbishop and persuaded him that the Pastor was bad. He was bad becuase he permitted Latin, disallowed the KofC from selling things in the narthex and began to no longer use EMs because the clerics were the ordinary ministers of communion. These were all such unforgiveable sins that the Pastor had to go.

    Needless to say, I was really caught off guard. The Pastor was blindsided by his bishop. And when I went to meet the new pastor who is coming, he announced to me that Latin and chant would be curtailed, by order of the Archbishop. I saw the handwriting on the wall and began to end my tenure there.

    My parishioners are heartbroken. We have many, many new families who came for the Latin and chant and are much more traditional than the hippies who exacted this punishment of the Pastor.

    The moral of this story: Stuff like this is still happening. This parish will be at war with itself for some time. The new Pastor, a young man of 38, will be crucified by both sides and frankly, will deserve it by his clear opposition to what came before.

    I have concluded that the Novus Ordo is just too dependent on personal fiat of the priest to make it work.
    Kyrie eleison....oh sorry, no Latin (probably Greek also.)
    Thanked by 11MatthewRoth trentonjconn francis CHGiffen monasteryliturgist CharlesW tomjaw Chant_Supremacist ServiamScores LauraKaz PaxTecum
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,142
    Oh man...I am SO sorry. And I agree with your conclusion.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw rich_enough PaxTecum
  • mattebery
    Posts: 16
    I'm sorry to hear that Kevin.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,047
    The Church is apparently perpetually stuck in 1968.

    Now, don’t get me wrong, there were lots of nice places to be in 1968. That’s part of why I picked that year.

    But everything, and I mean absolutely everything, was like an app on an Apple device when you hold your finger on the home screen and they all start shaking with fear because any one of them could be deleted any second…

    Kevin, I am so sorry to hear what you are going through! I hope you are able to land on your feet, somewhere stable, and somewhere that can truly be a spiritual home, not a war zone, for you.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw ServiamScores
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 723
    I'm sorry to hear this, Kevin. Poor Father. This is not the first time he's fought this battle and been punished and moved for it. Witnessing his previous battle and trying to continue working at the parish in the aftermath were key factors that lead me to stop working in OF world, and to petition to become a canonical member of the Ordinariate. Anything to further shelter from the insanities of OF world. Building a solid music program at an OF parish is de facto building on sand because of the very nature of the rite. All that to say, I feel your pain, and I hate to hear you and Father (and the poor parishioners who love tradition) have been subjected to this.
    Thanked by 5MatthewRoth irishtenor tomjaw LauraKaz IanW
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,252
    Prayers for you, Kevin, for your Pastor, and for the heartbroken parishioners.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,018
    I once mentioned to another musician whose program was wrecked by a "progressive priest," "do you know how long it takes to destroy a program that it took years to build?" One week. Here one Sunday, gone the next.
    Thanked by 7trentonjconn davido irishtenor CHGiffen tomjaw francis LauraKaz
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    I knew this one lady who got 4 pastors in a row reassigned.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 364
    A slight tangent, but is it really the case that before the liturgical reforms this sort of thing could not happen, specifically in the realm of music?

    Surely it must have happened that a pastor who assiduously promoted solemn Mass with music from the Graduale was replace with a pastor who wanted psalm tone propers in order to save time; or that a pastor who promoted congregational singing of the Ordinary was replaced by one who thought congregational singing was creeping protestantism; or that a pastor who required a certain level of theological and musical quality for hymns sung at low Mass was replaced by one who wanted sentimental dreck, or simply replaced hymns with the recitation of the rosary; or that a pastor who wanted paid section leaders or occasional orchestral Masses with professional musicians was replaced by one who wanted everyone, including the organist, to be a volunteer.

    My point is that while there was less discretionary room regarding Mass texts and rubrics prior to 1965, there was still a fair amount of discretion in the realm of music, and I feel pretty sure that many a pastor who worked heard to develop the music program in his parish was replaced by one who destroyed it.
    Thanked by 6Roborgelmeister PaxMelodious CHGiffen LauraKaz Chrism PaxTecum
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 723
    Perhaps, but the degree to which one can deviate in the OF is greater than the degree which one can deviate in the EF. Full sung Mass with Gregorian propers and organ to spoken Mass with guitars and folk music is a much greater leap that full propers vs psalm tone propers.
    Thanked by 4MatthewRoth tomjaw Chant_Supremacist LauraKaz
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 364
    But I'm not sure that it's much further than Sung Mass to low Mass with Sr. Mary Perpetua leading everyone in reciting the rosary while Mass is being celebrated. I think today we underestimate the degree to which celebrations of the TLM have been affected by the liturgical movement. There were plenty of spoken Masses before the Council with, if there was any music at all, more or less the equivalent of guitars and folk music (reed organs and devotional hymns).

    I do think the flexibility of the NO has contributed somewhat to the reign of the pastor's personal taste in liturgy, but really only somewhat.
    Thanked by 3Roborgelmeister hilluminar LauraKaz
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,211
    fcb-I agree with you as to the nature of those before the Council. I think what we introduced into the mix is that layfolk, informed and uninformed, have demanded loudly their preferences. That is the unintended "wildcard" in all of this. This is what happend in my case. A small group of people, mostly in their 60s to 70s, demanded the archbishop make a pastoral change based on "THEIR" preferences.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw hilluminar francis
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,798
    I think that it has made it possible to actively destroy good things instead of not having the force of personality or personal interest or even raw talent to maintain high liturgical standards, an army of acolytes, a schola and choir that never shrink to below the bare minimum…

    (I hate the title but…) You just can’t keep this kind of thing going forever.

    But you can go out of your way to destroy it more easily now, since the playing field between the options is even.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,857
    @fcb Or the argument as to whether they replace the Polyphonic Ordinary with a chant Ordinary... The argument between polyphonic propers and chant Propers was active.

    Interestingly having been acquainted with a number of choir lofts of small churches in South London, it is impressive how many chant books survived to gather dust.

    Also the Hymn in the Westminster Hymnal (A couple of parishes I know have a set) are not in anyway contrary to the One True Faith.
  • francis
    Posts: 11,052
    THE definition of sacred music in the Latin Roman Rite… in order of importance…(from here forward the LRR.)

    ONE. Gregorian chant (no vernacular is licit)
    TWO. Polyphony (no vernacular is licit)
    THREE. Organ (no simulacrum is licit)

    How many of you have this?

    Hymnody? Let it roll in the Divinium Officium!
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,031
    One thing that always fascinates me is that whenever I hear of a priests removal due to complaints, I have literally never heard of the bishop seeking the feedback from other parishioners to see if the complaints are unbiased or contested. Just people complaining and bishops caving, all the while another contingent of the parish might be happy as clams. I’m sure there are cases where due diligence is respected, but I imagine it’s more rare than not.

    I’ve reference it here before, but I once lived through a transition that saw the use of chant, the communion rail, and much besides collapse within the span of 2 weeks after a new destroyer replaced our precious pastor. It was tragic and I had to leave shortly thereafter much to the dismay of the parishioners. I still pity them to this day. It was awful.

    I recently heard someone quip that “the church is the one place where you’re virtually guaranteed to get into trouble for doing your job.” Gave me pause.
    Thanked by 12CharlesW irishtenor trentonjconn CHGiffen LauraKaz tomjaw kevinf StimsonInRehab MatthewRoth Anna_Bendiksen hilluminar Joseph Michael
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,364
    A good job in church music with a supportive congregation and pastor is glorious. It's so troubling that it can all be wiped away in a matter of moments simply due to the whims and caprices of a new pastor.

    All of you who are still laboring in the field have my support and prayers. I know it's not easy. There are times when I wish I were still in the field, but I'm glad I left it behind and am a pew-sitter now. Though, it was nice to play for a few events in the past month to show I still have some (modest) organ chops!
    Thanked by 3ServiamScores tomjaw CharlesW
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Just to zoom out a bit and ask some hard questions, I thought I would bring into the conversation a question about how changes are made. Because it seems to me that throughout Church history, some conflicts have at least had a chance of being resolved simply by modifying relatively minor things like timing and tone.

    In the old days the Pope would send out a special envoy to resolve disputes, someone with a long experience of community life like St. Peter Damian or St. Albert the Great.

    We can be right with a smile and an occasional box of donuts for the parish council. Or we can be right like Khrushchev, banging a shoe on the ambo.

    I don't have inside knowledge of the parish at hand, but perhaps anyone could say that offending the KofC early in a pastorate might not be 100% well-advised. Perhaps there were other situations that might have been handled better. Who knows? But the whole thing is sad.

    Looking back at my own ecclesial service I can see a bunch of times when if I had handled something better it might have mitigated conflict--and other times when the conflict was already there and I just stepped into it. Often both. Something to consider in the future.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Heath
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,229
    I'm glad I left it behind and am a pew-sitter now.


    You are NOT alone, friend!
    Thanked by 5francis tomjaw irishtenor CharlesW Roborgelmeister
  • francis
    Posts: 11,052
    was already there and I just stepped into it.
    Watch out for the dogs… (especially the lupus)
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 3,031
    I don't have inside knowledge of the parish at hand, but perhaps anyone could say that offending the KofC early in a pastorate might not be 100% well-advised. Perhaps there were other situations that might have been handled better. Who knows?
    Some people are very eager to be offended, and take offense at perfectly innocent things. There are also lots of people who place the statement “this is how we’ve always done it” just behind John as the fifth gospel, and any attempt to modify the habit is met with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    And for reference, “selling things in the narthex” is very likely the annual tootsie roll drive.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw CHGiffen irishtenor
  • Felicia
    Posts: 130
    @tomjaw
    Also the Hymn in the Westminster Hymnal (A couple of parishes I know have a set) are not in anyway contrary to the One True Faith.

    However, not all preconciliar hymnals were of the same quality as the Westminster.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,211
    To clarify, "selling things in the narthex" was a weekly affair. It got out of hand. And the KofC would harass people. Parishioners were annoyed and afraid.
    Thanked by 3Chant_Supremacist MatthewRoth tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,018
    I used to have the KofC for lunch. They were a bunch of drunks and we both knew it.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    That's painting with a broad brush, CharlesW.

    If something is basically OK but getting out of hand, one way to deal with it is to put boundaries around it. The second Sunday of the month and you have to be seated behind the table, for example. And by the way I'd love to come to your baseball night sometime.

    I knew a pastor who came in to a parish already pretty impatient with the Altar Guild. It went downhill from there.

    At one parish where I worked, there was a deep-seated disagreement among some of the homeschool moms that I found out about only after I left 5 years later.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 12,018
    Kathy, I am talking about my own work parish. They were a group of men who just wanted to get away from their wives and drink beer. I hear it may have gotten better but am not there to witness it.
Add a Comment