Gloria Patri sung by assembly at Introit?

TLMlover

Hi All,

I am new here; a long-time lurker; LOVE the forum and have learned so much from you all. Thank you all for your willingness to pass on your knowledge!

I am the music director, cantor, and very basic organist (no pedals, transitioning classical pianist, no organ training), at our very tiny parish of about 30 souls. I have been directing the music program there since Ash Wednesday, and have introduced the propers, chant ordinary (Jubilate Deo in English), sung responsorial psalm, Marian antiphons, and other elements of a traditional N.O. music program.

The people are responding well to my changes, and I hear more voices singing every week. I create a worship guide for them each week with everything included. I play and cantor (hymns kill me), and recently I have had two young ladies joining me to sing what they are able to sing (neither have any experience aside from the typical four-hymn sandwich.) I am super glad to have these young ladies, and they do have nice voices and can sing on pitch. We have a one hour practice each week and I hear lots of progress already.

My question is about the Introit. Our church is very small and it takes the priest about 30 seconds or less to process to the altar at the beginning of Mass. He does not use incense, and quite often he is short on time, because after our Mass, he has to drive about an hour to another parish to celebrate another Mass. I don't usually know which Sundays he is short on time, so I just treat all Sundays as if he is short on time. Therefore my Introit is usually just the antiphon, no psalm verse, no Gloria Patri. I read in the GIRM that it is acceptable just to chant the antiphon.

What I am wondering is: Is it against the rubrics to substitute the psalm verse with the Gloria Patri? I'd like to chant the antiphon myself, omit the psalm verse, and have the people join me on the Gloria Patri. Does that seem acceptable? If so, could we end with the Gloria Patri, or must the antiphon be repeated? My intent is to include the assembly in the singing of the Introit, and to keep the entire Introit about one minute long to accomodate Father's time constraints.

I can find no reference for this at all on the internet or in any church documents. I even asked AI, which responded quite inadequately, LOL. So I am hoping that one or more of you might be able to guide me.

Thanks to everyone in advance, for any and all suggestions! I have lots of questions for future threads, especially about playing the organ (help!!).

Take care, all.

trentonjconn

intent is to include the assembly in the singing of the Introit

I would caution you very strongly against this. I direct at a parish where there is an established custom (which predates my employment) of the people singing the Gloria Patri. There are one or two tones which they sing strongly and well, but there are many which they sing strongly and...not well. This creates tension between the congregation and the choir/schola and also mars what would otherwise be a well-executed piece of chant.

The ordinaries and dialogues belong to the people, but the propers belong to the choir. I'd recommend maintaining that division.

I'm not sure about rubrics off the top of my head, but aesthetically I think it makes most sense to either do the entire introit (antiphon psalm gloria antiphon) or just the antiphon. Ending without the antiphon, while (I believe) being licit, is awkward-sounding.

If you're looking to cut time, hymns, announcements, and preaching are the place to do it. Cutting up the introit will save you maybe a minute or two. It doesn't seem worth the loss of artistry to save that little time.

smvanroode

Welcome to the forum!

The introit does accompany the entrance of the priest. Depending on the time the entrance takes, you can either sing the antiphon followed by the psalm verse(s), (Gloria Patri) and antiphon, or just the antiphon. One shouldn’t extend the introit unnecessary beyond the entrance of the priest and let him wait until the choir is finished.

The psalm verses and Gloria Patri belong to the choir or a cantor. I don’t recommend to sing these with the people. This part doesn’t really belong to them, and it can create an awkward performance, as described by @trentonjconn.

Chant_Supremacist

If memory serves, Musicam Sacram describes the "third level" of musical participation as the congregation participating even in the propers. It is certainly an amazing thought, but I can't imagine it working at all outside of a religious community. The lesser doxology might seem pretty manageable, but I can easily picture ugly results as either a sudden tempo change happens when the people join, or chaos when they encounter one of the more difficult psalmody terminations.

Speaking of the latter, often enough the traditional psalmody does not end on the tonic, and in those cases it would be sheer musical destruction to end there, unless you checked and altered the termination where needed (not that I enjoy the idea of ending it there in general either).

TLMlover

Thank you all. I definitely agree with what was said.

I think I read on this forum that the responsorial psalm and the Gospel acclamation are also part of the propers. I think I'll try to fulfill Musicam Sacram #33 by having the assembly participate on those parts of the propers, and I'll sing the Introit, Offertorio, and Communio.

I think the people enjoy just listening to the propers, anyway. I know, personally, I am totally enraptured by the excellent schola at the TLM in a city an hour away, whenever I have the opportunity to attend.

I'm using the Ainsle propers for my N.O. parish, and find his work very beautiful. Anybody else using Ainsle?

Thanks again, everyone!

SponsaChristi

In the Ordinary Form the Gloria Patri isn’t sung in the Introit. The Mass Propers are part of the Mass itself and cannot be changed.

GerardH

In the Ordinary Form the Gloria Patri isn’t sung in the Introit.

[citation needed]

Certainly the Gloria Patris are included in the new Graduale on page 822, under the subheading 'pro antiphonis ad introitum et ad communionem'.

Richard Mix

Our 8:00 AM congregation used to be very good at the vii tone Glory be, with psalm-toned introit (which gave me very few Sundays on which I could use the full melodies). I thought I might ween them by including G.P. with the Communion, and now they seem to know all 8; in the meantime some changes of pastors has done away with the 8:00 Introit.

At San Francisco's Church of the Advent one may hear lusty congregational singing of the Asperges to kick things off.

MatthewRoth

In fairness it is ad lib and excluded from the actual chant even with the abbreviated form in the traditional style.

trentonjconn

In the Ordinary Form the Gloria Patri isn’t sung in the Introit.

Absolutely false.

M. Jackson Osborn

In Anglicandom one will once in a while, here and there, hear a very few souls chime in softly on the Gloria Patri of the introit where the English Gradual is used nearly every week. Their voices are generally pleasant and in tune. (This even happens at Walsingham now and then.) However, this should not be encouraged. (Maybe they should be encouraged to join the choir where their talent and enthusiasm could blossom.) The proper belongs to the choir or a cantor. The people do not have to, nor should they be encouraged to, nor should they be expected to sing everything. They do well to sing their own parts with joyful hearts.

Liam

Do not poach solid singers from the pews: the people in the pews need them, especially in Catholic churches, whose pewsitters normally sing tepidly if at all unless they have nearby support/cover.

Chant_Supremacist

Can't I poach just a couple of them?

MatthewRoth

Absolutely false.

TBH I’ve done it now that my pastor says to do things like normal when we have the NO on rare occasions. However, not even Solesmes consistently does it; they omitted the doxology at Dom Kemlin’s abbatial blessing, for example.

And the doxology is not exactly encouraged, again, by the lack of inclusion in the main part of the proper.

I hate the word lusty for music, can we not? Thank you.

Anyway people hate when I say this, but I think that organ helps, specifically the Liber Cantualis Comitante Organo. When @StimsonInRehab visited me last year, we had just switched a few Sundays before to the LCCO for the Asperges. Apparently our organist, who uses it for almost every other part of the ordinary and now the Marian antiphons at the high Masses, needed other (inferior, I think) accompaniments because it had the Gloria Patri written out. Now they don’t necessarily sing every part when we do a new Mass or when we return to one that gets used less often (IV, IX, even I). But I hear them chime in on the Credo with strength. (I was tempted to try V for Paschal Time, but I stuck with I, because they know it best, and they are weakest on I out of the seasonal ordinaries; I, III — sparingly — and IV will do.) I did my best with a similar accompaniment for the mode IV Asperges that they finally seem to have learned (hey, dummy — myself — putting it out helps).

and there are people willing to try at Vespers. We had congregational singing of the psalms at Tenebrae (but not the antiphons, the lack of organ deters them, including when there’s an accident or a bad cipher during ordinary Vespers). Naturally they didn’t try the responsories, though I format my booklets so that anyone, clergy, schola, or faithful, can use them. Otherwise, with the organ at Vespers, they try the repetition of new antiphons. They join in on the familiar ones, like the five antiphons of ordinary Sundays. They try the Magnificat, and it’s usually fine.

denroden

I have been singing English propers at daily mass for several years. For the first year only a couple would join in the repetition of the antiphons, and now we have most of the congregation joining. I use the meinrad tones for the verses, and soon several would catch on to the verse pattern and spontaneously sing the doxology. Now many join me once I get to the doxology. Not sure how or why I should try to discourage this.

Richard Mix

I hate the word lusty for music, can we not? Thank you.

Anyway people hate when I say

Of course you may.

davido

TLMlover, you are actually on to a great idea! If you use the same tone for the Entrance antiphon each week, there is no reason why the people could not join in on the unvarying part of text, the Glory Be.
The old Lutheran Service Book and Hymnal from the 50s actually did it this way. A demonstration can be seen and heard on this video: https://youtu.be/Qy7er_w8hgU?si=0ID3Qd5tTO_w4rzU This proves that people concerned with congregational singing (as Catholics now are) had found this to be a good idea in the past.

The Gloria Patri is basically never said in the NO. In the old mass it was said at least 4 times.
I think including the Gloria Patri as we are discussing in the NO mass is one of the ways we can follow the thought of Pope Benedict XVI and have the Old Mass enrich the New Mass.

The Anglican practice that Jackson describes above is another great opportunity to get the people involved in the propers (old English Gradual, or the Ordinariate St Peter’s Gradual)

trentonjconn

But why would one want to involve the people in the propers? It's a complete novelty.

davido

Because they sing a hymn at the place of the propers at every mass. They were told to actively participate and they do and want to.

trentonjconn

They can have their processional/offertory/communion hymn. No problem. But let the choir take care of the antiphons. Certainly they wouldn't be expected to sing the priest's parts. Why should they be expected or encouraged to sing the choir's? Tolerating it is one thing. Encouraging it is another entirely.

TLMlover

Good morning,

Great advice from everyone, thank you!

Because they sing a hymn at the place of the propers at every mass. They were told to actively participate and they do and want to.

They can have their processional/offertory/communion hymn. No problem. But let the choir take care of the antiphons.

YES and YES.

I think B16's (or possibly JPII's, can't remember) instruction about full participation is golden, and does include listening to well-done propers. The more I re-read all of your comments here, the more I think I prefer not including the people in singing the Introit. Possibly the Communio, but my parish is so ensconced in hymn singing, that I prefer a very brief Communio, a nice traditional Communion hymn, and the proper Marian antiphon. People do sing the Marian antiphon, which I am thrilled to hear!

Davido, I love that video! It's so nice to hear a pastor, (I guess is the correct term,) who can sing! Thank you!

Thanks again to everyone for their input. Truly enlightening.

TLMlover

I have been thinking about what SponsaChristi said about no Gloria Patri in the OF at the Introit. It was bothering me, because the majority of composers of the OF propers in English (the ones I am familiar with, at least) include the Gloria Patri in the Introit, or in the Introduction give instructions for including it:

Composers who include the Gloria Patri in their English chant Introits
Bartlett - Simple English Propers
Esguerra - Choral Graduale Simplex
ccWatershed - Lalemant Propers
Peter Johnson - Entrance, Offertory, and Communion Chants
Arborgast - Complete English Propers
Burt - Anglican Use Gradual
Massery - Entrance Antiphon Hymns
Ainsle - English Proper Chants

Composers who do not include the Gloria Patri in their English chant Introits
Page - Psalm 151
Ford - American Gradual
Kelly - Entrance Antiphons from 3rd Edition of Roman Missal
Weber - The Proper of the Mass

In the 1990 Solesmes Gregorian Missal, no mention is made of including the Gloria Patri at the Introit.

So.... still confused but it matters not because I have chosen to only sing the antiphon as the Introit, no verses, no Gloria Patri, no participation from the people in the pews except putting their listening ears on.

Thanks for the inspiration to do research, Sponsa!

davido

Weber has the Gloria Patri’s printed in full at the end of the book. I think Ford does too.

TLMlover

Cool, thanks davido, I'll check the Weber. Is the Ford Bruce or Paul? Lol.

a_f_hawkins

GR ¿1974? has 3 pages of Toni ℣ Gloria Patri pro antiphonis ad Intoitum et ad Communionem as well as clear instructions for their use in the Praenotanda II De ritibus ....

...
Huiusmodi antiphonae et versiculorum alternatio haberi potest
quoties sufficit ad processionem comitandam. Attamen antequam
antiphona in fine repetatur cantari potest, ut ultimus versus, Gloria
Patri, Sicut erat, per modum unius decantatus. Si autem Gloria
Patri peculiarem habet terminationem melodicam, haec eadem
terminatio in omnibus versiculis adhibenda est. ...

TLMlover

Thank you very much, af. I have the 3 ccwatershed English translations of the Praenotanda, will read them. Is the 1974 GR in Latin, untranslated to English? I can get the gist of most of it until "haec eadem terminatio in omnibus versiculis adhibenda est. ..." Could you translate that, please?

TLMlover

Sorry, af, no need to translate, I just read the English and it makes perfect sense. And I'm amazed that there is so much freedom given to omit verses AND/OR omit the Doxology!!

"If it happens that the chant, without the verse Gloria Patri and the repetition of the antiphon, becomes too protracted, the doxology is omitted. If the procession is shorter, only one verse of the psalm is used, or even the antiphon alone, with no verses added."

This is perfect. The GIRM says the antiphon can be sung alone without verses but does not explain in depth like this Praenotanda does. The Gregorian Missal, as I mentioned above, does not make reference to the Gloria Patri at all in the instructions for the Order of Mass.

Thank you very much!

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