Musing: Responses
  • edward.yong
    Posts: 39
    The Byzantine liturgy has countless composed and harmonised versions of the responses to litanies, the dialogues before the preface and communion, etc. The Anglicans have many settings of the preces or responses.

    In comparison, the Roman rite tends to use plainchant for the sung responses such as 'Amen' and 'et cum spiritu tuo' and so on.

    Is there anything preventing the Roman rite from having composed responses?
  • davido
    Posts: 1,000
    Nothing.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • Charles_Weaver
    Posts: 93
    Henri de Villiers has composed some harmonized versions of the responses here.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • davido
    Posts: 1,000
    The austerity of Western monasticism, particularly the Benedictines, has influenced the musical history of the Roman liturgy and prioritized monophonic, Gregorian chant. However harmonized responses can be found in the Catholic world in various traditions, particularly certain Parisian choirs and certain German choral traditions.
    Thanked by 1Roborgelmeister
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,984
    Mass of the Transfiguration (mass viii) as set by Normand Gouin perfectly demonstrates that chant can be harmonized in a stunning fashion:

    https://youtu.be/bur4ja2xahg?si=X1_ve1MhnGZ5A9t9
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,597
    Well, all things being equal, the motu proprio of Saint Pius X would probably preclude this, as nice as these harmonizations may be.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,123
    From a practical point of view, it's one more thing for the priest and organist to have to coordinate on. And I suspect that was part of Pius X's thinking. But accompanied responses were part of the 19th-c. German American tradition, as shown in Singenberger's 1886 Theory and praxis of melodeon-playing. There also some in Walkiewicz's Wielki spiewnik koscielny, which came out about 20 years after Tra le Sollecitudine, so the tradition died hard.
    Thanked by 3DavidOLGC canadash Roborgelmeister
  • Here's a routine reminder: Be discriminating but don't nitpick.
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 325
    The responses must be sung as they appear in the liturgical books (S.R.C. 3891), so a totally different setting is not permissible. I don't know that that precludes vocal harmonization or descant, but why? The responses are the bare minimal degree of congregational participation at High Mass—and please, spare us the rejoinders about the superiority of interior participation, as though the two were mutually exclusive!
    Thanked by 3ServiamScores Liam hilluminar
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,514
    The priests I know don't have much interest in learning to sing like those in the Byzantine rite. We went to the local Byzantine church during Covid. Their priest did not have to obey the local bishop, so he followed the "rules" of the province and had something like 7 liturgies on a Sunday morning beginning at 7 or something like that. I was completely amazed at the priest's singing ability and his easy and perfect modulation from one key to the next. And he had another profession as well as family!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • davido
    Posts: 1,000
    Harmonized responses are beautiful. Look at old Lutheran and Anglican hymnals for examples.
    This really neat recording project demonstrated what Jeffrey is describing above: https://on.soundcloud.com/hQmVU8yyxWCxEdMo9
    Or rather, all the responses are accompanied. But you could sing the same harmonies with SATB choir.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen edward.yong
  • edward.yong
    Posts: 39
    @Jeffrey - i'm not so much thinking of the organist, but more along the lines of harmonizations of the responses. the Byzantine-Slavic use has 'folk' harmonizations of the responses, and given how populations in Central Europe had overlapping territories, i'd be surprised if the simple responses in their Latin-rite neighbours didn't develop similar harmonized versions!
  • edward.yong
    Posts: 39
    @davido thank you for that - it's lovely! a bit surprising to hear the organ accompanying the priest's versicles and even the preface.
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 567
    The (English) Masses of Paul Jernberg are very much in this style of harmonized chant. Quite striking, but I fear one would be hard pressed to find a celebrant and congregation willing to learn a whole new set of tones for the dialogues etc. if they already know the chant/ICEL.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQfy1G_PirM
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,597
    Accompaniment of the priest’s parts and the Ite (Benedicamus Domino) is entirely illicit, and while I’m not sure that it was a concern at the time, before the motu proprio, that recording shows why there was an attempt to rein this in, and honestly, that style doesn’t do a defense of accompaniment of every last thing any favors.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • edward.yong
    Posts: 39
    i was checking out Henri de Villier's responses and playing them on my lute to get an idea of what they sounded like, and my first thought was 'this sounds an awful lot like Russian chant'. then i looked his name up online and discovered he's choirmaster at the Russian Catholic parish in Paris, and it all makes sense now :D
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 325
    There's also this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pseeoLdDbBQ
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,193
    Yes, instrumental accompaniment of the presidential dialogs and orations is illicit (GIRM 32), and so it would be passing strange to have the congregation respond in harmony.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,846
    And yet they are harmonized in a source from Lassus' circle (SWnR 25 p. 195).
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • davido
    Posts: 1,000
    The reason to do harmonized responses is because it sounds beautiful. This has been realized by many Christian communities over the centuries. The small minded animosity of people on this forum to musical ideas outside of their experience continues to astound me.
  • Here's a routine reminder: These reminders are displayed randomly, and are not based on users' comments.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,597
    ?
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 325
    The reason to do harmonized responses is because it sounds beautiful.
    In writing this, do you mean to imply that a congregation chanting the responses in unison, as Holy Mother Church desires, sounds less beautiful, and that it may be preferable for a silent congregation to listen to the choir sing the entire liturgy?
  • JacobFlahertyJacobFlaherty
    Posts: 354
    I like this kind of response from our parish, Holy Family. With respect to Mr. McMillan, it's just too much. Folks want something beautiful but pretty simple.
    https://youtu.be/0sFyxD3DXY8?t=769
  • davido
    Posts: 1,000
    I think some people here are deliberately obtuse.

    Clearly harmony is beautiful and monophony is beautiful. They are not opposites. And invoking Holy Mother Church is ridiculous because you would have to believe that there is only one unique expression of the Roman Rite to believe that tradition can only admit of one sort of response (see Byzantine and Ordinariate for starters).
    Finally, while I would love to be part of a silent congregation witnessing a whole liturgy sung beautifully by a world class choir, a congregation can sing the chant responses at the same time a choir harmonizes them. Much like unision congregational hymnals and choir SATB hymnals.
    Thanked by 1Roborgelmeister
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,597
    And invoking Holy Mother Church is ridiculous because you would have to believe that there is only one unique expression of the Roman Rite to believe that tradition can only admit of one sort of response (see Byzantine and Ordinariate for starters).


    No, because one is not the like the other, and the Ordinariate is (and people don’t like to admit it, but it’s true) its own thing, and over time it will revert to more normal practice, hopefully along the lines of what we preach here and at CMAA events. But there just is not enough juice once you have two or more generations of Catholics who were never Episcopalians.

    Finally, while I would love to be part of a silent congregation witnessing a whole liturgy sung beautifully by a world class choir, a congregation can sing the chant responses at the same time a choir harmonizes them.
    I doubt this given the nature of the responses.
    Thanked by 1LauraKaz
Add a Comment