Jeff,
Are you in Stockton?
From Visalia,
Charles Culbreth

PS: CUA (Benjamin Rome School)
Yale Divinity
Westminster
St. Olaf's
Rennsaeler (sp?)

Don't forget that at the graduate level, masters in choral and organ can generally be "tailored" with department chairs and supportive faculty advisors towards specific academic focus upon sacred literature and related subject matter. I find this to be true of many of the CSU campuses with strong choral programs.

Mr. Culbreth:

Well howabout that. Very rare to come across another in the Culbreath family of names here in CA! And my middle name is "Charles".

Thank you for the list. I'd like to know more about CUA and why you listed it first.

I live in Orland, near Chico, about 175 miles north of Stockton I think. The music program at CSUC is pretty dismal, but perhaps not hopeless.

Where, if one were to do so, can one earn a degree in chant today. [worldwide]

Jeff,

You may wish to consider the value of a first rate musical education for your son, whether that comes from a Catholic or non-Catholic university. Universities in larger towns and cities often have nearby parishes which can provide spiritual guidance and sustenance, which celebrate the liturgy in a fitting manner, and which will give him the opportunity to put his musical skills to liturgical use.

If you are not set on a RC school, you couldn't do better than Westminster Choir College. One of the finest organ depts in the country, very close to Philly and NYC and every decent undergrad there has an organ job on the weekends, or is paid to sing in a church choir somewhere . The Symphonic Choir regularly sings with the NY Phil and Phil Orchestra. It's small- lots of individual attention. Oh, and Princeton Univ is there- so many other opportunities. Princeton itself has a decent music dept, but not so concentrated on Sacred Music

Donna Swan

I agree with IanW and Sam Schmitt. Find a good school, and an Excellent Church Music Program. Perhaps an apprentice program could be arranged? Or at the very least, a list of "CMAA Approved" liturgical music programs in the country could be compiled, along with Music Schools in the area?

Should have said that Westminster has an excellent Music Ed dept. and is Presbyterian endowed. When I was there, women were not allowed to wear slacks off campus and Weds Chapel was required- roll was taken. How things have changed. But I will never forget Dr. McCurdy wailing away on those hymns. Magnificent!
Donna

Some other programs to consider.

Catholic institutions
Notre Dame: http://theology.nd.edu/graduate-program/master-of-sacred-music/welcome-from-the-director/index.shtml
CSB/SJU: http://www.csbsju.edu/music/curriculum/default.htm - Kim Kasling, excellent organ teacher. Fr. Anthony Ruff for chant.

Non-catholic
UMich: http://www.music.umich.edu/departments/organ/
UT Austin: http://www.music.utexas.edu/programs/Sacred.aspx - Gerre and Judith Hancock are there. Both wonderful organists and teachers.

And as for the "culture", not to tell someone perhaps twice my age how to parent, but your kids are going to reach the real world soon enough. They better be able to handle it by college, or else they're in for a lot of hurt in life. College is by many years too late to keep sheltering, especially for a musician.

I attended a small Catholic college and all three of my organ instructors taught music courses,
had church jobs, and regularly gave solo concerts.

Would it be "bad form"
to spend the school year studying with a college/university organist,
and spend the summer shadowing/studying with a church organist?
Would that provide a weekend vacation opportunity for the incumbent and experience/money for the student?

What about "organ scholar" opportunities?
Use the Forum Search; I recall at least one such item.
Some googling may give insights into what a student could experience in that role.

"Anywhere you have us musical deviants running around, immorality will follow, from CUA to UM."

But surely not in the same degree at every school. If it is possible to study music in a less depraved environment than currently prevails in most places, without compromising excellence, should we not make the effort?

I'd recommend studying at a major school with an organist teacher who is at a high church, or at least capable of playing and leading a high church service, meaning either Episcopalian or Catholic.

I saw and heard Jeanette Fishell direct the choir at an Episcopal music conference this summer and recommend her very, very highly. I knew she was a fine organist, but did not know that she was also a choral director of great abilities and also understands liturgy.

She starts teaching at Indiana U this fall.

And, of course, Westminster Choir College has always been a great school for church musicians, as has already been said.

Search online for the college/university semester-end
applied music expectations (i.e., private lesson juries).

Those music lists might give an idea about what
the music lessons will focus on, and what will need attention
through some means other than official private lessons.

Jeff, I would add two ideas for your consideration:
1) While it is always more helpful to have good organ skills to be the sole leadership of a parish music program, we have to remember that our goal is always to be SINGING THE MASS. In order for the singers in any ensemble to be able to sing the Mass well, the director needs to be a decent singer and, even more importantly, a good vocal pedagogue and choral conductor. A fabulous organist who has neither vocal teaching skills nor the genuine heart for working with people nor the ability to support the singing well is a detriment to a parish's music program, despite being an excellent performing organist. Your son needs to learn vocal pedagogy skills and choral rehearsal skills aimed at amateurs, so any university music program needs to be evaluated not only in terms of excellent organ and voice teachers, but on the quality of the choral training. (And even if your son's musicianship places him in an advanced choir, he needs to at least audit a "lower level" choir--the 'y'all come sing' group as one says in the South--to see how people of little training but much enthusiasm are taught/led/inspired by a good choral conductor/teacher. Any choir director can turn out an excellent-sounding choir if the choir starts out with well-trained voices--read comments by, e.g., Roger Wagner and the late Robert Shaw--but knowing how to teach people to sing well is a totally different matter.)

Also, if your son attends a larger or secular university music school, at least one solid Catholic mentor on the music faculty would be a great help.

2) I would seriously consider, for undergraduate training, one of the smaller, orthodox Catholic colleges where spiritual formation and living a genuinely Catholic life is considered the foundation for the academic (and musical) education, particularly a college where chant is part of the entire life of the college, coupled with internships during the academic year and/or during the summer in local Catholic parishes with solid musical leadership, attendance at Colloquium, master classes with organists and choral musicians, and so on. How wonderful it would be to see one's son so formed by great liturgy and by immersion in a truly Catholic worldview and lifestyle that, when he goes out into the world as a liturgical musician, he has such a strong vision and experience of the ideal of the Mass that he would be able to do the brick-by-brick work of moving the liturgies of his parish toward that ideal.

(And let us not sneeze at the musicians teaching at such places just because they may not be 'big names". The culture of most 'important' universities is such that being a faithful Catholic is a near guarantee of not getting tenure, even if the institution is Catholic, so there are many excellent people teaching at small institutions. Also, getting into a fine graduate program is not contingent on having studied with big names, but on what a prospective student brings in skill set and maturity. A graduate school that would turn away a prospective student merely because said student does not have a big name behind their excellent skill set is not a graduate school that that student should want to attend.)

I offer these suggestions from the perspective of having attended excellent music schools in both Catholic and public universities, having taught in Catholic and public universities, and having spent a lifetime in small-to-medium-sized parishes. And being a mother! I cannot agree enough with the previous posters about the toxicity of the culture of most music schools. If one chooses the large school for its musical advantages, one must be prepared for fighting the culture at every turn, and finding ways to support one's faith and not become discouraged (and know that there WILL be active persecution for living a faithful life, and that because of the subjective nature of much musical training and evaluation, persecution can be couching in "academics"). If one chooses a smaller school for its Catholicity, there is the _possibility_ that one may have to seek out advanced training on their own. The only way to know is to interview the musicians who will be training your child (organ, voice, choral conductor), finding out if they will mentor your child or not, and observe them in the rehearsal hall/studio/classroom. I have no doubt that if you do this in-depth work of seeking the school with the right fit for your son's calling, you will find it.

Please forgive me the length of this post. I am passionate about these issues!

A British angle on this. I've just sung evensong (a kind of Office) at Canterbury Cathedral, as an extra with a visiting Anglican choir directed by a Catholic musician (Purcell Mag & Nunc, anthem Purcell "Rejoice in the Lord Alway"). He was there on his merits - he's a d**n good choral director, a music graduate of Durham University and the Guildhall School of Music, both government-funded institutions. He's worked at a Catholic cathedral before now, and I don't doubt he'll work for the Church again. What matters here is that he's a Catholic musician with a good training - not the religious ethos of the institutions at which he studied (Durham's is Anglican, the Guildhall is a secular music school). If we're serious about our music, we'll go where it takes us. If the Church is serious about liturgical music, it will utilise our passion and ability. If not, we’ll be equipped to do other things.

Faith first, then education. An atmosphere that encourages and promotes The Roman Catholic Faith is more desireable than ten degrees from a prominent musical institution that will destroy the soul. And this day and age many are institutions wrought with depravity and sin.

Corruption does not discriminate the age of man or child. Do not think that testing one's soul (or worse, that of a child, and doubly worse, your own) with the nearer occassion of sin brings strength of character or stronger faith. That is the path of the foolish.

And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things and be rejected by the ancients and by the high priests and the scribes: and be killed and after three days rise again. et coepit docere illos quoniam oportet Filium hominis multa pati et reprobari a senioribus et a summis sacerdotibus et scribis et occidi et post tres dies resurgere
8 32 And he spoke the word openly. And Peter taking him began to rebuke him. et palam verbum loquebatur et adprehendens eum Petrus coepit increpare eum
8 33 Who turning about and seeing his disciples, threatened Peter, saying: Go behind me, Satan, because thou savourest not the things that are of God but that are of men. qui conversus et videns discipulos suos comminatus est Petro dicens vade retro me Satana quoniam non sapis quae Dei sunt sed quae sunt hominum
8 34 And calling the multitude together with his disciples, he said to them: If any man will follow me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. et convocata turba cum discipulis suis dixit eis si quis vult post me sequi deneget se ipsum et tollat crucem suam et sequatur me
8 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel shall save it. qui enim voluerit animam suam salvam facere perdet eam qui autem perdiderit animam suam propter me et evangelium salvam eam faciet
8 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul? quid enim proderit homini si lucretur mundum totum et detrimentum faciat animae suae
8 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul: aut quid dabit homo commutationem pro anima sua
8 38 For he that shall be ashamed of me and of my words, in this adulterous and sinful generation: the Son of man also will be ashamed of him, when he shall come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Woah, Noel, thanks for catching that! I'm 24 and such have no children, homeschooled or otherwise. The "we" referred to the music department at my university.

To be blunt, I've heard the music/organ prof at one of these Catholic Micro-Colleges. This person was a bad organist - there's no charity to be given. I'm not talking using heels on Bach or uninspiring Romantic playing. I'm talking about butchering elementary organ music. And this is the person teaching organ and music and church music classes. In fairness, in talking to them I found this person very knowledgeable in church music. But a student would be better off not taking organ than taking from this person.

And the rumors I've heard is that the behavior of the "Catholic" students at those Micro-Colleges is absolutely terrible. Because the trad parents take it as a given that they'll behave themselves. The question, it seems to me, is do you want your child in an over-protective environment until they're 22 and THEN face the real world, or do you want them to get a serious education?

(And I mean no disrespect to institutions such as Ave Maria or Thomas Aquinas. They have SOME excellent programs, but due to the size often don't have good music programs. In fact, I've met the art prof from TA, and he is a fantastic and brilliant scholar. So I'm merely asking, does the young person want an education or an environment?)

Let me also recommend that the undergraduate portion of your education is the most important. You will develop as a musician most in those 4 years. Find a good school and teacher and make the best of the diocese you are in. If you keep up with this site and others, you should be fine. Come to Colloquium and recharge like the rest of us.

This is excellent to hear! Where and how one learns the art and craft of music are intimidatingly complex questions and very worthy of our attention as an organization.

Gavin said:

"And the rumors I've heard is that the behavior of the "Catholic" students at those Micro-Colleges is absolutely terrible. Because the trad parents take it as a given that they'll behave themselves. The question, it seems to me, is do you want your child in an over-protective environment until they're 22 and THEN face the real world, or do you want them to get a serious education?"

A good friend of mine recently graduated from one of those "Micro-Colleges" and is one of the most mature, level-headed people I know, on top of being a wonderful musician. Since I went to a secular school, got an excellent musical education, but left philosophically and theologically a bit confused, to put it mildly, this does not seem like a bad option to me.

Also, does anyone know anything about Franciscan University? I know they've just started a sacred music program, and if I were back in high school, it would look pretty appealing to me.

Franciscan's Sacred Music Program is now headed up by Paul Weber. I expect great things. Dr. Weber will be at the Colloquium, along with faculty from other schools, to discuss his program and the challenges in general.

That is excellent news, and I share the same expectations.