Presentation of the Lord- OF
  • Gaudium
    Posts: 55
    Curious as to your church's practice regarding the Presentation of the Lord, which falls on a Sunday this year. Are the candles your parish uses similar to the Easter Vigil candles? There is no mention of when candles are extinguished, so just as long as they last...? We don't have room for a procession, but were planning on the second form: solemn entrance. It seems to me from a conversation with my pastor that the blessing of candles and procession does not take place if it falls on weekday Masses, but it seems as though it should be part of the Mass no matter what day it falls... Any guidance would be appreciated!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,475
    Traditionally the blessing always happens on February 2 even if the Purification office and Mass are moved to Monday which happens after Septuagesima (although it’s supposed to be simplified in parishes, as opposed to cathedrals and collegiate churches). So I see no reason to suppress the blessing on weekdays since it can be merely recited.

    The candles are like those of the vigil. We have fatter ones with big plastic cups that are easier to manipulate. It is emphatically not the time to bless everyone’s candles. It’s really for these candles to be distributed and for the church’s candles. There is a blessing in the Ritual for blessing candles otherwise, and people need to be reminded that they need to bring a reasonable amount of candles if the priest is willing to also bless those candles — La Salette is not the Gospel.

    I can’t remember off of the top of my head the exact Roman custom for lighting and extinguishing candles. But surely someone here can find what the preconciliar practice would be. For want of more explicit instructions in the missal, I would do that.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,939
    Aren't the candles lit for the Gospel, as well as the Canon?
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,499
    Fortescue (1918)
    During Mass the candles are held lighted during the gospel, and from the Sanctus to the end of the Communion.
    That may refer just to the ministers candles, not those of the congregation, kneeling with candles and bowing at the consecration sounds hazardous!
    In small churches -
    If the procession is not made, strictly, the candles should not be blessed. They are blessed and distributed primarily in order to be held during- the procession. Indeed, in many countries the candles are given back to the church afterwards. But in England it is not unusual to bless and distribute candles at Candlemas, even when there is no procession. People keep them for use at sick calls, or to burn around the bed of a dying person.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,475
    (Yes, I was pretty sure that it’s the same as at a Requiem.)

    Well the ministers don’t have candles except for the priest so obviously it’s anyone who has a candle. And everyone kneels for the consecration.
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  • Gaudium
    Posts: 55
    I'm speaking directly for the OF, Ordinary Form. In which the Roman Missal states "The faithful hold in their hands unlighted candles..... While the candles are being lit.... etc... All carry lighted candles"
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,499
    Gaudium
    In 2020 I was at Westminster Cathedral for Candlemas, the 5:30pm Mass. Those of us with the wit to gather at the back and process with candles kept them alight until the Gloria finished. Earlier I had been at an Ordinariate Mass (more OF than EF), all processed with lighted candles round inside the church, and again kept them alight until the Gloria had finished, I think we re-lit them for the Gospel, but not later. However there was a choir and orchestra performing Mozart's Sparrow Mass so the liturgical flow was obscured. (And I decided to go to Mass again to focus on God rather than music.)
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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,475
    (And I decided to go to Mass again to focus on God rather than music.)


    I'm a bit of a purist compared to my pastor who wanted the Sparrow Mass for Christmas but a) not the time, nor the place and b) the commentary is hardly needed.

    Right, I understand this from the thread title, that it's about the Novus Ordo, but you said that there's no mention of extinguishing them. However they are too messy and dangerous frankly to keep lit the whole time, so the traditional practice seems wise to follow as it's not contradicted by the new missal. There is also great symbolism in lighting them for the Gospel and during the Canon; at a Requiem, they're lit as well for the absolutions (ironically the acolytes don't hold their lit candles at a Requiem!)
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  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,011
    Both The Roman Missal and the Ceremonial of Bishops are silent about the time the candles are to be extinguished. However, from Msgr. Peter Elliott, Ceremonies of the Liturgical Year (2002, p. 48):

    ‘Strictly speaking, candles should be extinguished at the conclusion of the procession, but it would seem more convenient, and seemly, for all who carried candles in the procession to extinguish them only after the Opening Prayer.’ [7. This would be in harmomy with the Psalm Sunday Procession, which concludes with the Opening Prayer; cf. MR, Holy Week, Passion Sunday.]

    After the Collect, the Mass continues in the usual manner. That means, that the candles are not to be lit again for the Gospel, nor for the Eucharistic Prayer.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,475
    “Not to be lit” is ridiculous. And people hold their palms anyway. What are you going to do, write to Rome to whine that the celebrant takes up his palm again for the Passion?

    There is no contradictory rubric. People are free to do this or not. But it’s really obnoxious that you think that the trad way is forbidden when it is clearly not. It may not be intended. It rarely is. But you’re doing a great service for the traditionalists when you insist on this.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,011
    Wow, where does the harsh tone come from?

    ‘Not to be lit again’ (after extinguishing them) is just a consequence of the prescriptive nature of rubrics. The absence of a contradictory rubric doesn’t mean one can do anything one wants (at least, in the OF). If there’s no rubric to light the candles again, it’s just not supposed to be done.

    Anyway, I have never seen that at the Presentation of the Lord the candles are lit again, after they have been extinguished after the Collect.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,475
    Where does the harsh tone come from?

    Because you insist that it cannot be done. But OK. More power to you. I will happily crusade for the abolition of the NO when all is said and done.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,499
    In the Ordinariate DW:The Missal there is explicitly
    The procession being ended ... . The Mass continues ... . During Mass, all may hold lighted candles while the Gospel is read, and during the Canon.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,011
    But OK. More power to you.

    I'm in the dark as to why this would be about power. It’s just a matter of ‘say the black, do the red’. Church documents have this to say about it:

    ‘Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority’ (Sacrosanctum Concilium 22).

    ‘The priest must remember that he is the servant of the sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass’ (Institutio Generalis Missalis Romanis 24)

    ‘Anyone who acts thus by giving free reign to his own inclinations, even if he is a priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved’ (Redemptionis sacramentum 11).

    ‘It is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms’ (Redemptionis sacramentum 12).

    About incorporating 1962 rubrics or customs into the 1970 Roman Missal, the following explanation has been given: ‘It must never be forgotten that the Missal of Pope Paul VI, from the year 1970, has taken the place of that which is improperly called ‘the Missal of St Pius V’ and that it has done this totally, whether with regard to texts or rubrics. Where the rubrics of the Missal of Paul VI say nothing or say little in specifics in some places, it is not therefore to be inferred that the old rite must be followed’ (Notitiae 14 (1978), p. 301).

    To me, it makes clear that at the Presentation of the Lord, you are not supposed to light the candles again after the Collect.

    The example from the Ordinariate illustrates the principle quite well: there, the rubrics clearly state that holding lighted candles is an option at the reading of the Gospel and at the Canon. In the Roman Rite, not so.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,499
    I suggest the key phrase is "the Mass continues as usual", which seems to exclude the holding of lighted candles by the congregation (DW: The Missal does not contain that phrase)
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,475
    I'm in the dark as to why this would be about power.


    It’s an idiom.

    Look, Steven, I get that you actually seem to like the Pauline liturgy, but you are repeating things that we already know. The Notitiae response is not convincing. You have completely absorbed the line that allows liberals to do whatever they want while punishing conservatives who feel a need to be obedient, all while we are getting beaten back including under Francis, while Mgr Marini was still his MC; Gregory DiPippo just shared a story about a special Mass for Our Lady of Guadalupe in 2013 or 2014, so not long into the papacy, where they departed from the norm established that Mass IX is used on those feasts. The music was not only in Spanish but included large solo portions that were inappropriate and sung poorly on top of that.

    The Ordinariate is the Roman rite.

    To your earlier remark:

    Anyway, I have never seen that at the Presentation of the Lord the candles are lit again, after they have been extinguished after the Collect.


    Because people are ignorant or they share your view that borders on ideological purity. “We’re not like those dirty trads.” If that’s not what you intend, you have a bizarre way of showing it. The question was asked and answered — the OP doesn’t have to take up my suggestion. It’s just that it’s there for the taking.

    But again, since you clearly don’t want other people to have nice things, you should at least acknowledge that this will mean that the Latin NO will remain at best a curiosity for academics and monasteries.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,011
    Thank you for your frank reply and for being open about your position. It clarifies a lot. It still puzzles me though (sorry for that), how insisting to adhere to liturgical rubrics somehow makes someone a liberal who does whatever he wants.

    Also thanks for sharing the story about the performance of the Misa Criolla at Saint Peter’s Basilica on December 12, 2014, although I couldn’t find Gregory’s post you’re referring to. The story shows that, even though Msgr. Guido Marini personally might have disagreed with this particular choice, he took his duties as MC seriously and ultimately served faithfully at that Mass, and remained faithful to pope Francis during his entire tenure as MC.

    In the end, I think it’s not about power, but about being faithful to Church authority. I suspect, however, that we might have quite different views about what this authority entails.

    Alas, the original question has been answered and there’s enough in this thread to be able to weigh options and make an informed choice. Let’s leave it at that.

    …you should at least acknowledge that this will mean that the Latin NO will remain at best a curiosity for academics and monasteries.

    Not where I live; any Sunday I can choose from several places to attend Mass in Latin according to the 2008 Missale Romanum.