"Deus Israel" Introit Translation
  • Hello everyone,

    I am looking for an approved translation of the introit "Deus Israel". I cannot simply use modern bible translations to obtain this passage, since these translations use a different manuscript family for the Book of Tobit. The best I can find currently (which appears in most programs I've found online) is:

    "May the God of Israel join you together; and may he be with you, who took pity upon two only children: and now, O Lord, make them bless thee more fully"

    Does anyone know if there is an approved translation for use in the Liturgy?

    Thank you,
    CantorCole
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,493
    I see the Introit Deus Israel is no longer in the GR Has it been set aside as insufficiently 'authentic gregorian'?
  • @a_f_hawkins

    Yes, that was my assumption. But according to the preface of the 1974 Graduale Romanum, these chants can still be used if one so desires.
  • GerardH
    Posts: 486
    The 1965 Roman Missal renders it thus:

    May the God of Israel join you together; and may he be with you, who was merciful to two only children: and now, O Lord, make them bless you more fully. (P. T. Alleluia, alleluia). Ps. 127, 1 Blessed are all who fear the Lord, who walk in his ways. V. Glory be to the Father. May the God of Israel.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen irishtenor
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,440
    I don't have a problem using the 1964/65 translation, but seriously: no one cares if you use a hand missal that was duly approved for what you do in your own parish or for what you put as the translation when you do the Latin.
  • Considering how oddly some of the “official” translations are, I’m inclined to agree with MatthewRoth. Last week’s gospel acclamation verse was a great example of that. “Show us, Lord, your love, and grant us your salvation.” The Latin said “Show us, Lord, your mercy…” (misericordiam). I assume it’s some “dynamic equivalency” codswallop.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,440
    Sigh.

    They were either working from a different text, the Latin having been revised at some point, or they’ translated based on some Scriptural source or sources in lieu of the Latin, which is also nonsensical.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,493
    I think this stems from doubt about whether people understand the word mercy properly. misericordiam according to the best Latin dictionary is 'tender-heartedness, pity, compassion, sympathy, mercy', but people see it more in terms of their need for penitence than of God's unquenchable love for them.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,440
    It’s both but also: I love the little Thérèse. Her understanding is very much the latter. And it’s not really lacking, although I suppose that many preachers hack that understanding in order to water it down, i.e. God’s love is so great that no conversion and no penance are required.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 765
    The Ordinariates' Divine Worship has it in the 2nd mass provided for the celebration of holy matrimony:

    "The God of Israel make you one, and may he be with you even as he had mercy of two that were the only begotten of their fathers: grant them mercy, O Lord, and finish their life in health with joy. (Alleluia. Alleluia). Ps. Blessed are all they that fear the Lord: and walk in his ways."
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • @IanW

    Wow that is a convoluted translation, in my opinion
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 765
    Are you suggesting it's too difficult for Joe and Mary Catholic?
  • CantorCole
    Posts: 77
    @IanW

    No, I just feel like the grammar is awkward when compared to the original Latin text. Not a very literal translation.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 765
    @CantorCole. I think there are three issues here. Firstly, the "original Latin text". Given the variageted history of the apocryphal text, the languages in which it has been expressed and its use as a proper, what is it? Secondly, what is the history of its English renderings (from which come this particular form)? And thirdly, the hieratic nature of this particular English expression, which I'll grant isn't of a kind with with which you may be familiar (hence the ironic allusion to "Joe and Mary Catholic").
  • CantorCole
    Posts: 77
    I would argue that we needn't concern ourselves with the "variageted history of the apocryphal text", since, by "original Latin text" I am referring to the translation specifically used for the proper Chant:

    "Deus Israel conju(n)gat vos et ipse sit vobiscum qui misertus est duobus unicis et nunc Domine fac eos plenius benedicere te"

    compared to:

    "The God of Israel make you one, and may he be with you even as he had mercy of two that were the only begotten of their fathers: grant them mercy, O Lord, and finish their life in health with joy."

    I find it odd that the translation used in the Ordinariate uses "only begotten", of which the Latin equivalent is not used in this text. There is a lot of theological baggage (not in a negative sense, to be clear) attached to this phrase, so I think it obscures the point of the text. (I actually took a look at the KJV of Tobit, and it appears that they simply adapted it from this translation.)

    In general, it is a very wordy translation that is much longer than the Latin text itself. But with the KJV aspect, it makes sense that it is not as faithful a translation, since the base text of the KJV was not the vulgate.

    The version given by @GerardH appears to be a much more faithful and concise translation.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,440
    would argue that we needn't concern ourselves with the "variageted history of the apocryphal text", since, by "original Latin text" I am referring to the translation specifically used for the proper Chant:


    Right. And this basically rehashes something that we discussed with respect to office antiphons. There is tolerance for referring to the so-called original Scriptural texts, but this can wildly change the antiphon in translation. And then the Gloria in Italian and now French doesn’t even respect the Greek text of Luke. We should stick to the Latin and translate that, like we did before the last seventy years or so.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,925
    We should stick to the Latin and translate that, like we did before the last seventy years or so.
    Whatever one thinks of the Vulgate, it is the official scripture of the Church. So to deviate from it substantially based on different manuscripts seems entirely inappropriate, imho. (To say nothing of the now-jettisoned millennium of tradition built upon said official text.)
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,440
    Well they hate the Vulgate but can’t ditch it entirely, so the botched neo-Vulgate is the next-best solution for them.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,493
    It's not directly relevant, since the Introit is not a straightforward extract from any known version of scripture, but
    "the official scripture of the Church" is the Nova Vulgata, see Scripturarum thesaurus, while the 1592 'Clementine' edition remains "worthy of respect"
    by virtue of this Letter we declare the New Vulgate edition of the Holy Bible as "typical" and we promulgate it to be used especially in the sacred Liturgy but also as suitable for other things, as we have said.
    Finally we decree that this Constitution of ours be firm and forever efficacious and be scrupulously observed by all concerned, notwithstanding any obstacles whatsoever.
    Given in Rome at St Peter's, 25 April, on the feast of Saint Mark the Evangelist, in the year 1979, the first of our Pontificate.
    IOANNES PAULUS PP. II

    And it fulfills the mandate of VII (Sacrosanctum Concilium, n. 91), just as the 1592 fulfilled the mandate of Trent.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,493
    The Introit
    "Deus Israel conju(n)gat vos et ipse sit vobiscum qui misertus est duobus unicis et nunc Domine fac eos plenius benedicere te"
    Vulgate
    17 et dixerunt: Benedicimus te, Domine Deus Israel, quia non contigit quemadmodum putabamus.
    18 Fecisti enim nobiscum misericordiam tuam, et exclusisti a nobis inimicum persequentem nos.
    19 Misertus es autem duobus unicis. Fac eos, Domine, plenius benedicere te, et sacrificium tibi laudis tuae et suae sanitatis offerre, ut cognoscat universitas gentium quia tu es Deus solus in universa terra.
    Nova vulgata :-
    15 Et benedixerunt Deum caeli et dixerunt: “ Benedictus es, Deus, in omni benedictione sancta et munda, et benedicant tibi omnes sancti tui et omnis creatura tua; et omnes angeli tui et electi tui benedicant tibi in omnia saecula!
    16 Benedictus es, quoniam laetificasti me, et non contigit mihi, sicut putabam, sed secundum magnam misericordiam tuam egisti nobiscum.
    17 Et benedictus es, quoniam misertus es duorum unicorum. Fac illis, Domine, misericordiam et sanitatem et consumma vitam illorum cum misericordia et laetitia ”.
    Septuagint with interlinear literal translation
    17 Εὐλογητὸς εἶ, ὅτι ἠλέησας δύο μονογενεῖς· ποίησον αὐτοῖς, δέσποτα,
    Blessed are you, for you should mercy on two only begotten; let you grant to them, O Master,
    ἔλεος, συντέλεσον τὴν ζωὴν αὐτῶν ἐν ὑγιείᾳ μετὰ εὐφροσύνης καὶ ἐλέους.
    mercy, may they complete the life of them in health with joy and mercy.

    NB verse numbers don’t align,
    and when the Septuagint (LXX) was written only begotten had no particular baggage.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen