Choir Sitting for Eucharistic Prayer?!
  • Birdsong
    Posts: 5
    Hello everyone. As I stated in a previous post, my choir merged with another choir due to a parish merger.One thing that bothers me is the irreverent behavior some, if not most, display. This is most evident in the fact that no one, except myself, kneels for the Eucharistic Prayer. They don't even stand. They sit. Before the merger, with our former director-- who was the wife of a deacon-- most stood, I knelt. This didn't bother me, because I know that standing is permissible. At my last rehearsal, one of the members from the choir that merged with us said that the choir is exempt from kneeling. I told her that I have never heard of that, and even so, standing would be required. She looked away and didn't respond. Recently, the new director was going to remove the kneelers, and I reported that to the pastor, who didn't allow it. I am alarmed at how irreverent it all is. The director regularly drinks coffee, but then received Communion, which I also mentioned to the Pastor because I believe she is endangering her soul by doing this.

    Has anyone ever heard of the notion that choirs are exempt from kneeling?
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,333
    I recommend continuing to kneel, since you know that's the right thing to do. There's no exception for those who are in the choir. And I think you were right to talk to the pastor about the director failing to observe the (very modest requirements of the) Eucharistic fast. Obviously it affects her soul, but it is also scandalous since it is done obviously and publicly.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw LauraKaz
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,367
    no, they're full of it. If they can't kneel, then they can't kneel, but removing kneelers is a problem.

    I get the frustration. I'm not sure that I would expect action on the coffee issue with respect to the eucharistic fast (but yes, willfully and knowingly disregarding the fast is grave matter). Keep your chin up, and just smile and nod, then pray about it.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw LauraKaz
  • Chrism
    Posts: 873
    Because choirs perform an important function that can be impeded by kneeling, they are exempt from kneeling while they are singing, including the time required to rise, return to position and catch their breath before singing. Exemption means you don't have to kneel, it doesn't mean you're forbidden to kneel.

    At the TLM (where the universal Church's posture rules only apply to vested choirs in sanctuary), the Benedictus need not begin immediately after the consecration, so choir members who kneel at the consecration usually have some time to get up and gather themselves. At the OF (where the rules apply also to the laity), the Memorial Acclamation really does need to happen on time, because the priest waits for it, so the rising and returning needs to happen more quickly.

    Personally, I feel that the option for kneeling should be available to all choir members, who can make their own prudential judgment. Definitely agree that kneelers should be kept for those who would prefer to kneel. I don't think that aesthetics alone should trump devotion and drive the choir to adopt a uniform posture of standing, for example.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,367
    singing.
    At the TLM (where the universal Church's posture rules only apply to vested choirs in sanctuary)


    Repeating the same thing without a citation does not make it more true. The Caeremoniale Episcoporum is clear: the posture does apply to the people, and a cleric (layman, nowadays) is to enforce it.

    Because choirs perform an important function that can be impeded by kneeling, they are exempt from kneeling while they are singing, including the time required to rise, return to position and catch their breath before singing.


    Says whom? I grant that on Sundays and feasts or non-violet, non-black days, if one splits the chant Sanctus (abolished in 1957 and kept by Pius X against the wishes of both Pothier and Mocquereau, but…) you will need to stand after the consecration and before the Benedictus, but it’s so short that it’s pointless to stand when you need to kneel again on those other days. Same for the Agnus Dei.*

    And I agree that singing is done standing ideally, that much of the kneeling in the American trad scene is goofy (the whole Kyrie and Agnus in some places…) but there are moments where even the liturgical choir has to sing kneeling: the preces of the 1962 and earlier office, the Litany of the Saints, the beginning of the other litanies before procession, part of the Invitatory or ps 94, verses of certain hymns…the rubric does not say “except for the cantors or the side of the choir singing this text”.

    The same is true for the norm in the U.S. for the NO wherein we remain kneeling through the end of the anaphora no matter the day.

    *sure, this is obviously a problem for polyphony but that’s not quite the same thing, I think.

  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 417
    Has anyone ever heard of the notion that choirs are exempt from kneeling?


    At the Latin Mass we never knelt with priest and congregation at the “incarnation” while singing the credo, nor did we kneel at the start of the Sanctus because we were singing. We always knelt for the Eucharistic prayer and stood to sing the Agnus Dei even though the congregation returned to kneeling. It’s possible there may be a misunderstanding.

    If I’m being honest, it may be that your director finds you annoying and stress-inducing. If I were you, I would just focus on myself and my role as a chorister, making sure I’m practicing at home and show up for rehearsal knowing all my music.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    Yet another reason that choirs should not be in choir galleries or 'lofts'. Their comportment out of sight is too often the result of behavior that they would not show if they were, where they belong, integrated fully in plain view 'in choir' or in a 'choir space' near the altar-sanctuary

    If your choir are not kneeling you should ask them to do so.
    Do they have kneelers?
    If not, you should provide kneelers and tell them to use them.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,367
    At the Latin Mass we never knelt with priest and congregation at the “incarnation” while singing the credo, nor did we kneel at the start of the Sanctus because we were singing. We always knelt for the Eucharistic prayer and stood to sing the Agnus Dei even though the congregation returned to kneeling.


    See I feel vindicated. My parish is like this and it’s obviously in conflict — but I have never seen anyone, in the U.S. at least, not kneel during the Credo.

    Also, while I don’t know how to handle these things anymore, it’s a problem that the pastor got saddled with a DM who’s willing to flagrantly violate the eucharistic fast. Maybe Birdsong is annoying and stress-inducing. But it’s hard for me to believe that things will get better without getting worse!
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    I could see an exception to the coffee. If you are at multiple masses on Sunday and have received at an earlier mass, coffee would not approach sin in any way. Might be a bad example to some but other than that, not important. Yes, standing is perfectly acceptable and is allowed. However, if your choir is anything like mine was, you wouldn't want them visible to the congregation.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,367
    Then you can’t receive. It’s one thing to have coffee in the loft at the later Masses. It’s quite another to receive!
    Thanked by 1LauraKaz
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    Schweigt stille, plaudert nicht (Be still, stop chattering), BWV 211, also known as the Coffee Cantata.

    Maybe they can sing this.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen StimsonInRehab
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,000
    Our schola stands at the Eucharistic Prayer, while the general posture by the faithful is kneeling. As we have to sing the Memorial Acclamation (‘Mortem tuam…’) and the ‘Amen’ after ‘Per ipsum’, and have to be on our feet for the Pater noster, to remain standing is just the most practical way. Sitting however is an absolute no go.
  • Chant_Supremacist
    Posts: 43
    We genuflect during the credo. For the able-bodied I've never found it to interfere. These are chant credos mind you.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Situations vary. In our loft, there are kneelers for the second row of choir seats, but not for the front row, for reasons of space. If only a few singers are present, people in front can and sometimes do walk to use the available kneelers, but that is not always practical. One copes.
    Thanked by 2Liam Chrism
  • emac3183
    Posts: 59
    In our loft, the very limited space makes it really tough to kneel, and even if the choir did, the vast majority of them would then not be able to see anything, and with a healthy mix of ages (including some in their 80s), uniformity would be lost. I've made a point of emphasizing GIRM 43 to my choir:
    "In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus...except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration...for the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal."
    Thanked by 2Magdalene chonak
  • Chrism
    Posts: 873
    But the uniformity here is "according to what is laid down in the Missal", which is that "they should kneel...except when prevented" - so there is no loss of uniformity if those who are not prevented do kneel while those who are prevented make the profound bow.
  • emac3183
    Posts: 59
    I'm definitely open to that argument–it seems to me that the uniformity is in our showing reverence according to our ability/circumstance.
    I agree aesthetics/communal experience is not the only consideration, but I do wonder what the pastoral judgment says when the number of people who can reasonably kneel is small (as in our small choir loft with a tall guard-rail for the "ground level" and risers which don't have enough depth to kneel on), and when the distraction of their motion is very real for both the people kneeling and those standing (especially, but not solely, in my younger choirs).
    I definitely have considered sending the choir to the pews on the sides of the choir loft for the Eucharistic Prayer, but I think this would create a huge amount of commotion at an inopportune time in the liturgy (and the pews are currently largely taken up by organ renovation mess).
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