How would you adapt this antiphon to English? - Domine, Deus salutis meae
  • GerardH
    Posts: 458
    I'm interested to see what people can come up with adapting this antiphon from Friday Compline to the following English text:

    Lord my God, I call for help by day, I cry at night before you.

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    Even better if you can provide a rationale for your decisions. I have my own adaptation from several years ago, but I'll hold off on posting it for now. I think it needs a reworking anyway.
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  • Palestrina
    Posts: 419
    Why do you need an adaptation, rather than a new antiphon in English in the same mode (and following its melodic principles well)?
  • Here's my ten minute take:
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    I'm assuming you mean using the exact English text you gave above. If adjustments were allowed (like starting it "O Lord my God") I might have done things differently.

    My rationale is basically as follows:
    Identify how the English text divides into phrases and the phrases in the original melody, and assign text to phrases accordingly. For each phrase, try to line up the text with melody so that the emphasis of the text lines up with the emphasis of the melody as much as possible. Expand or truncate melody in each phrase to fit text. Sing it and see what parts sound bad and if I can think of any alternatives, revise accordingly.

    For the record, I think English chant is a bad idea. But whatever floats your boat, especially if it's just for personal devotion. It's a fun little exercise if nothing else.
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  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 995
    My rationale: aiming at a syllabic melody, ignoring the asterisk. Singing the Latin antiphon, I try to get the sense of the type melody (because it’s not a unique melody) and then see if I can express the meaning of the English text with the idiom of the type melody.

    In the first half, I choose not to put the accented word ‘call’ on la, but on sol, because sol functions as a release note, putting the tress on the note prior to it. But in the second part, I put the words ‘cry’ and ‘night’ on the accented notes mi and sol. The final coincides with the accent in ‘before’.
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  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 381
    [off topic?] I don't see sufficient similarity of structure, quantity and rhythm. I wouldn't adapt.
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  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,878
    I don't understand why this "official" translation leaves out words... it completely omits "salutis meæ". This is where I REALLY struggle. I like adapting chant, but I cannot in good conscience abide by translations which are genuinely unfaithful to what the antiphon actually says.

    [And while not the case in this example] I also don't like it when translations change phrase structures around, when the original works just fine in english too. It's like someone saying, "Full of grace, we hail Thee, O Mary." It's fine...ish. But not right.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,878
    My little tirade out of the way, here are two versions; the only difference is the second line, where one version feels (to me) a little more natural in english, whereas the other is more faithful to the original neume groupings in the gregorian model:

    English Emphasis:
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    Gregorian neume grouping:
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  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 381
    I don't understand why this "official" translation leaves out words... it completely omits "salutis meæ". This is where I REALLY struggle.

    That's an issue of the underlying Bible translation, which is certainly based on a critically reconstructed Hebrew text, not on the Latin Vulgate. Antiphons made of Bible quotes usually aren't translated directly from Latin.

    The same text-critical choice is made and explained e.g. in Briggs C. A. - Briggs E. G.: A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Book of Psalms, volume 2, New York 1907, p. 242.244
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,777
    @gneus
    Is the Vulgate the inerrant Word of God? Asking for a friend.
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 381
    @tomjaw
    In the sense of being "free from any error whatsoever in matters of faith and morals" (Divino Afflante Spiritu 21)? Yes. So the church teaches.

    In the sense of, in all parts and aspects, accurately reproducing the original inspired text? Obviously not.

    In the sense of being an inspired text in its own right (so that deviations from the original texts are not to be considered weaknesses of the translation)? No.
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  • GerardH
    Posts: 458
    Thanks to all who have contributed.

    As promised, here is my own adaptation from several years ago:

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    On the off-topic topic of how the translation matches, the antiphon as it appears in the Latin Liturgia Horarum is "In die clamávi et nocte coram te, Dómine." With no antiphon melody in existence for that exact text, the Ordo Cantus Officii gives this antiphon instead. Ironically, the English Divine Office, instead of directly translating this text, just uses the initial verse of Psalm 87(88) from the Grail Psalter as the antiphon, and thereby accidentally ends out closer to this Gregorian antiphon, which is the exact same verse in Latin (here the Vulgate and Neo-Vulgate agree). I don't believe there is any allowance in the rubrics for deviation from the official texts in public celebration, so I'm going to work with the text I already have.

    Back to the music, you can see my early adaptation follows the neumes closely in the second phrase but disregards placement of word stress.

    I'm very pleased with the last phrase, except for a twinge of guilt about combining two notes into one neume on "-fore" - if anyone would like to alleviate my guilt with examples of this practice from within the Gregorian repertory, I'd be very thankful! I would also consider adapting the last phrase as @ServiamScores has done.

    In the first phrase, from memory, I just broadly outlined the tessitura of the original. It's my least-favourite bit, and as @smvanroode points out, the melodic stresses should go on so and not la. With so little text to work with, perhaps Steven's approach of disregarding the asterisk and barline is the better.

    I have, however, found my adaptation to be very singable; it is a frequent earworm of mine.

    I'll follow up with a new (improved?) adaption soon.
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  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,878
    Is the Vulgate the inerrant Word of God? Asking for a friend.
    It is the only official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church. So there’s that.

    I would also argue that it makes no sense to give translations of a Hebraic text if the official text is the Vulgate. Even if some ancient Hebraic text as a different version, the official antiphon is the Latin one which includes the extra text, ergo, that extra text should also be part of the translation.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,460
    The official Catholic text of the Bible is currently the Nova Vulgata, second edition.
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,777
    @a_f_hawkins I would not use a so called good translation, in preference to the inerrant Word of God!
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,460
    @tomjaw I would not set my private judgement about the Word of God above that of Holy Mother Church.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,878
    ICEL translators do not constitute “holy mother church”, nor are they any magisterial authority. There are plenty of previous “official” translations that include the missing text, because they are faithful to the vulgate.
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  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,020
    Here’s my compulsive contribution. Essentially trying to match the high points / directionality of the melodic elements in the original to flow and quantitative needs of the given English text.

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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,460
    ServiamScores - the problem you raise is based on a misunderstanding, or on a series of misunderstandings.
    The antiphon in the Liturgia Horarum is
    In die clamávi et nocte coram te, Dómine.
    It is not, and was not intended to be, a direct quotation from scripture. Neither was it intended to be sung. In private recitation of the Roman Breviary it was customary to omit the antiphons, but it was decided that optional spoken antiphons could be spiritually helpful to some users of LH.

    The translation the OP gave is not by ICEL, it is from the approved Anglo-Australian text of The Divine Office. (And is not authorised for public use in the USA, Canada, ...)

    For those who wish to sing the Office in Latin, substitutes for the spoken antiphons are given in OCO. There is no official source for sung Office antiphons in English afaik.
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  • a_f_hawkins wrote: In private recitation of the Roman Breviary it was customary to omit the antiphons


    Uh … citation, please? I've never heard this; like _ever_
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,460
    The source says
    These elements [antiphons, responsories, ] carried a heavy mortgage, so to speak, because they were widely regarded as peculiar to the monastic or choral Office and therefore to be omitted in private recitation.
    Two things suggest I should lack confidence in my assertion that it was done. One is that it is not evident who held this view, or when. The other is that the source is Bugnini, on p551 of O'Connell's translation of "Reform ". However Bugnini is not saying he thought they should be omitted in private recitation, his view was that they are valuable support for prayerful use of the Office. cf p552/3
  • CGM
    Posts: 696
    And another version.
    — "Domine" had three notes in the original, so I stretched out the word "Lord" to obtain a similar feeling.
    — I gave the word "God" just one note because that felt like a good, solid way to sing it at the end of a phrase.
    — In the second phrase, the Latin feels like a duple meter (in DI-i-e cla-MA-a-vi), so I tried to mirror that with the English (I call for help by day-ay)
    — I'm glad that several of us came to the same conclusion about adapting the last measure.
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  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,878
    ServiamScores - the problem you raise is based on a misunderstanding, or on a series of misunderstandings.
    The antiphon in the Liturgia Horarum is
    In die clamávi et nocte coram te, Dómine.
    It is not, and was not intended to be, a direct quotation from scripture. Neither was it intended to be sung. In private recitation of the Roman Breviary it was customary to omit the antiphons, but it was decided that optional spoken antiphons could be spiritually helpful to some users of LH.

    The translation the OP gave is not by ICEL, it is from the approved Anglo-Australian text of The Divine Office. (And is not authorised for public use in the USA, Canada, ...)

    The problem is that the original latin antiphon of the OP included the text that I was quibbling about. So the official translation is one thing, but that doesn't change my point that the translation does not actually reflect what the antiphon actually says. I've made my opinion known, so I'm not going to belabor the point any further. I don't mean to bog down the thread.
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  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,878
    I'm glad that several of us came to the same conclusion about adapting the last measure.
    I had the same thought. :)
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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,280
    Yeah, I don't understand why people got hung up on the Scriptural parts when they could just translate the Latin regardless if it's the (Clementine) Vulgate, NV, a pre-Vulgate or other Vulgate variant…

    Antiphons made of Bible quotes usually aren't translated directly from Latin.
    That's a problem because of the above.

    As to the omission of antiphons privately…what? The whole problem with 1911 was that they in fact came up with new antiphons even when the psalm remained the same.
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  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 381
    Yeah, I don't understand why people got hung up on the Scriptural parts when they could just translate the Latin regardless if it's the (Clementine) Vulgate, NV, a pre-Vulgate or other Vulgate variant…
    Antiphons made of Bible quotes usually aren't translated directly from Latin.

    That's a problem because of the above.


    Antiphons which are scriptural quotes should normally be recognizable as such also in the vernacular. Therefore they are usually taken from a corresponding place of the underlying Bible translation - which doesn't always exactly match the Latin, for various reasons (including matters of textual criticism, as in the discussed example).

    Liturgiam authenticam 37 addresses this, but it came too late.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,280
    That doesn't actually answer the question. Are they not recognizable as Scripture even with variants? That'd be news to anyone who lived before the 1970s. It also gives far too much weight to textual criticism. Translate the Latin, and be done with it.

    I also think that it's ridiculous, insofar as the Italian and French Gloria not only deviated from the Latin of the missal but from Holy Writ, in Latin and in Greek… for no good reason. Yes, it's true that LA doesn't really have any force. (by the way, I don't think that 37 applies at all.) But it's still clear to me that a little variation is far less egregious than just not respecting the text at all, yet that's apparently acceptable.
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  • GerardH
    Posts: 458
    Finally got to revisit this. In my research, I found Samuel Weber assigns this variant of Mode 4 (which he calls 4. g) to a handful of chants in each of his volumes. Singing his compositions a few times helped me to further internalise the modal centres of Mi and So, and not overemphasise La.

    Here is the result:
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    If I were to edit in rhythmic markings a la Old Solesmes, plus ictuses to demarcate the stresses, you can see how the emphases fall on Mi and So. (The ictus plus episema isn't displaying correctly, but I wouldn't leave any ictuses in anyway)
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    I am still a bit attached to my original ending with a clivis on "-fore", but consensus seems to be as notated, and I think this final result has more symmetry with my second phrase.

    Thoughts? I think it ends out most similar to @CGM's.
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  • I think your "own adaptation from several years ago" is excellent. Since everything is patient of improvement, I tried to improve it. Whether I succeeded is questionable.

    Since I don't know hot to insert my version into this message, I am attaching it.

    I added the E to "Lord" because I wanted to introduce the final of the mode into the first phrase. (This change was not necessary. It just appealed to me.) Your treatment of "God" was brilliant.

    I substantially recomposed the second incise because I don't think that in a syllabic antiphon setting the final syllable of an incise is idiomatic. (You'll probably find five examples to contradict me.I ) I made other changes so I could end the incise on an F punctum.

    Antiphons composed in this style (except in mode 5) usually end with the final accented set to a punctum on mode. If the text is is paroxytonic, the note is repeated. The Latin version ends on an oxytone. That's what why the phrase does not end with a "redundant cadence."

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  • My mind works faster than my fingers. I left out key words In the first sentence of the fourth paragraph above I intended to write:

    "...I don't think think that in syllabic chant like this one, setting the final of an incise TO A LONG CLIVIS is idiomatic. "

    In the fifth paragraph I intended to write "...set to a punctum on THE FINAL OF the mode..."

    Sorry
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