Why does Eastern chant use octavism more?
  • Geremia
    Posts: 269
    Why does Eastern chant use octavism more? Why didn't octavism take hold in Gregorian chant?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Vodka and chain smoking.
    Thanked by 2Charging3296 Geremia
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    Geremia -

    'Why does...'
    The extreme lower vocal range known to us as 'oktavism' is a phenomenon of the sacred hymnody and chant of Russian and other Slavic Churches. It is surely more modern and has no ancient pedigree. For one thing, the music and its harmony is seemingly not more than two or three hundred years old by now. This is not to disparage its beauty. The lower oktavist voice is unique to the Slavic Churches and would seem to be inseparable from their hymnody and chant.

    Why hasn't such a beautiful thing graced the music of the Western Church? We have our own traditions which are equally as beautiful. Part of the appeal of the Eastern-Slavic chant is that it is unfamiliar, 'other', than what we hear as our own music. I'm sure (I think!) that you would not want an oktavist providing a basso profundo to the likes of If ye love me, Sicut cervus, or 'Alleluia, sing to Jesus', etc., etc. And such a basso would be completely out of place with Gregorian chant. Can one imagine a chant such as Alleluia, Pascha nostrum floating gracefully, blithely along with an oktavist tethered to its graceful flow, dragging it down, down, down until it was not recognizable as Gregorian chant? Surely, such an attempt at 'cultural assimilation' is something that we do not need and would betray a lack of appreciation of our own cultural heritage. We humans are sometimes attracted to the new and different when we experience a certain ennui with what we ourselves have, no matter its peerless worth.

    I do not mean to disparage you. Eastern oktavism is a spiritual gift which almost, at times, can cause one to weep at its beauty - but its place is not at Roman Catholic liturgy.

    As for where to train an oktavist voice, I would suggest the choirmaster at a local Orthodox church (preferably Russian or other Slavic) would be a place to start.

    Where are you located?

    I'm pretty sure that there is a Russian Orthodox cathedral in New York city. You could probably find it on the internet and get in touch with the choirmaster for further help.

    P.S. - Speaking of unique basses -some Tibetan monks can sing two notes simultaneously!
    I have heard them.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    And such a basso would be completely out of place with Gregorian chant. Can one imagine a chant such as Alleluia, Pascha nostrum floating gracefully, blithely along with an oktavist tethered to its graceful flow, dragging it down, down, down until it was not recognizable as Gregorian chant? Surely such an attempt at 'cultural assimilation' is something that we do not need and would betray a lack of appreciation of our own cultural treasures.


    Sadly, this is a trend at least at one TLM Oratory. Not naming names or locations, but nearly everything is sung with a drone. Everything is pitched low and the pitch does indeed sink into the depths. Foreign ornaments are added. The schola can't sing in unison and cannot blend, so they add things to cover up the lack of singing technique. Nothing is sung in tune. It sounds horrible, but they are persistent. They seem to think they have recovered some secret historical method.

    Again not to name names or be uncharitable, but they seem to be styling themselves after a certain controversial chant scholar. That and whoever recorded the Dwarf songs in the Hobbit soundtrack.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,367
    Oh. Yeah. Look.

    I’m not a fan. I try to be open minded to (very much) not Solesmes. But that is exactly what they do, if I am thinking of the same place. Where he even gave a conference!!

    But you just can’t sing from the antiphonal and gradual of the Invalides chapel in the same style as you do a medieval sequence if HIP is the goal.
  • CantorCole
    Posts: 69
    @M. Jackson Osborn

    "Can one imagine a chant such as Alleluia, Pascha nostrum floating gracefully, blithely along with an oktavist tethered to its graceful flow, dragging it down, down, down until it was not recognizable as Gregorian chant? Surely, such an attempt at 'cultural assimilation' is something that we do not need and would betray a lack of appreciation of our own cultural treasures. We humans are attracted to the new and different when we experience a certain ennui with what we ourselves have, no matter its peerless worth."

    To be fair, the way Alleluia Pascha Nostrum is sung these days is an interpretation greatly swayed by the artistic and musical tastes of the Gregorianists at Solesmes in the 19th/20th centuries, not an accurate reproduction of the old tradition that was lost after Polyphony became dominant in the High/Late middle ages. Unfortunately, we no longer have definitive access to this old tradition, just whispers and hints.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    .
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    True, but we do assume that historically people sang things in tune, or at least tried to do so.

    My grievance with this particular schola is not that they are singing organum, it's that they are attempting to do something beyond their ability. If one were to sing a drone an octave lower, then it needs to be a perfect octave and not just some random low pitch that fluctuates throughout the phrase.

    It went from a congregation that joyfully sang several chant Mass ordinaries from memory to a "professional" schola that inhibits any authentic participation. It's just sad.

    I'm not opposed to chant scholarship and theoretical practice, but Solesmes just works most of the time in most situations. It's beautiful. And no amount of scholarship makes up for a general lack of musicianship.

    My observation of most choirs/scholas is they either sell themselves short and get stuck in a rut without challenging themselves to grow into something better--let's call this the Breaking Bread syndrome. And then there's choirs (or directors) who bite off more than they can chew and attempt things beyond their abilities, but are too stubborn or proud to recognize their deficiencies.

    I suppose it's a trap we all fall into as musicians. We either get too comfortable and take the easy road, or we attempt things beyond our abilities and then get defensive when a wiser and more experienced musician offers a constructive criticism.

    I apply the same standards to my organ playing. It would be easy to simply sightread basic repertoire and not push myself to practice. But I also need to recognize there is some repertoire that I will never have the time or skill to master and so I know my limitations.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW CHGiffen Liam
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    "I'm not opposed to chant scholarship and theoretical practice, but Solesmes just works most of the time in most situations. It's beautiful. And no amount of scholarship makes up for a general lack of musicianship."

    THIS.
    Thanked by 4trentonjconn CHGiffen WGS Earl_Grey
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