An anecdote on musicologists and HIP
  • smt
    Posts: 65
    Hey all,

    a small anecdote I wanted to share:

    Recently we started to work on Bruckner's Vexilla Regis in our ensemble. I got into smaller interpretation discussion with our conductor. If you look into editions of the work from CPDL, a crescendo is noted beginning with bar 7. She wanted to stick to that. I suggested to start with the crescendo in bar 6 with the ascending line in the soprano. No, no way - in 19th century music composers already used very detailed expression signs to which we should stick as closely as possible. (My approach would be more liberal in this point but ...)

    However, this triggered my interest and curiosity. Is the crescendo really from Bruckner or was it a mistake by some CPDL editor (although I very much trust James Gibb)?

    The autograph and first editions are easily available on IMSLP. You can quickly find out the following:
    Bruckner composed this motet for holy week 1892 in St Florian. (It was a center of the Cecilian Movement at that time. So the musical context of the motet's premiere on Good friday 1892 was Victoria, Palestrina and chant. Bruckner stuck out a bit.)
    Bruckner probably set the music for all 7 stanzas of the hymn (4-5 are written under the score but it seems improbable that should be sung with the chant melody wheras all five other with Bruckner's music). He used the liturgical text of his time, which was the "enhanced" by Urban VIII and companions. He did not compose a closing "Amen".

    The most influential edition of Bruckner's work however was the 1939 Edition Peters edition. It changed the text to the original hymn from Venantius. It set three stanzas under the music (1 + last two). It added an "Amen". That's the basis of most recordings or other editions, such as the CPDL ones.

    Back to my initial argument: It also came out that the 1939 edition changed the dynamic signs a bit. When you look closely into Bruckner's autograph or the first print you will see that the (de)crescendo have generally a broader range (in terms of time not volume). "My" crescendo clearly starts in bar 6.

    However in the course of my investigation I came across a recent essay of a musicologist on this motet. He not only tells the story of this work, its premiere and editions but also makes some conclusions. Most importantly: It is urgent time that we get rid of the "false" text and start to sing the "correct" one - the Urbanite version. For HIP reasons he is willing to exchange Venantius masterpiece and stick to the cheap copy. I was really baffled. I thought we had already overcome this extreme period of HIP.

    BTW I did not tell anything of that to my conductor as I am good choir member and do not interfere in interpretation matters which are in the hand of the conductor only. ;-)
  • GerardH
    Posts: 481
    although I very much trust James Gibb

    I very much do not. I have found many of his editions to be ugly, cramped and difficult to read, not to mention the numerous editions with mistakes. It is extremely unfortunate, given how prolific he is on cpdl.
  • smt
    Posts: 65
    His editions are often my only choice. Of course Allen Garvin editions e.g. are more beautiful.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,789
    N.B. The Vexilla Regis has 10 verses, of which the last two are a very early addition. Various verses from the 10 have been used for various Processional and Office Hymns.
    https://societyofstbede.wordpress.com/2024/03/17/passiontide-hymns/
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    I know what IP is, but not HIP.

    And yes, on the ground, the correct thing for a choral singer to follow the director's instruction.
  • reacebovietto
    Posts: 8
    The musicologist point of view is understandable if the piece is going to be performed in a concert setting. It would be the same for a psalm composed with the pian text of the Psalter (God forbid!). A liturgical setting would be different, in principle. There is always the possibility of a liturgical and musicological reconstruction of a Mass of the Presanctified in 1900's Vienna.
  • smt
    Posts: 65
    HIP = historically informed practise

    I think the example is perfect to demonstrate some problems with HIP.

    1) Is HIP about what has been in 1892? From the record of the Good friday liturgy we know that only one verse was sung, because the procession was too short for more.
    2) Is HIP about the author's intention? Bruckner composed for a liturgical occasion. Following a text change by the church authorities might be more in the author's intention than sticking to the original.
    3) Is it about sticking to what was written originally? That means to isolate it completely from its original (liturgical) context. You can do that, of course. But you should never call that the "correct" way of interpretation and everything else "false". It clearly misses the liturgical intention of the composer.

    Following the director... we are a small ensemble with no official director. We have some more democracy than would be possible in a normal sized choir. But still there are responsibilities and I respect that.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,367
    I have never been to a Mass of the Presanctified where the repository (not really an altar of repose; the English name is unfortunate) was so close as to lead to the Vexilla regis being cut short. That’s… interesting to say the least.

    The use of the original text on Good Friday seems to be somewhat more flexible, regardless of any official permissions. I’d have to check that point; I know that Mocquereau, Pothier et al. wanted the Holy See to restore the texts for the entire office, but this was (stupidly) rejected, and so we are not only left with these texts but some of the Leonine compositions are retained in the 1960 office where they replaced a hymn (Oct 7 is a disaster — and then they gave the same treatment to Aug 15 in 1950) or in the 1970, where there is no other option (I believe that the hymn for Holy Family is kept), and Lentini didn’t really restore the hymns. In fact, occasionally the hymns are incompatible, like for the Dedication of a church. I do like the hymn for Vespers or Christ the King, but its classical style is mellower compared to the others.

    Anyway, back to HIP: you can even do HIP of a modified score. There is a sense in which this is the case for the Messes royales of Dumont sung by the Schola Sainte-Cécile. No or very limited ornaments, organ accompaniment, from nineteenth-century editions (or sometimes the Solesmes square notes). I’ve heard a fantastic HIP recording of the Messe du 6e ton, in the baroque manner, with French Latin and alternatim with the keyboard (organ on the CD) for the Kyrie (I think that they do sing the complete Gloria and Credo). I personally would like to try it, once, at Mass, but this is pushing my limits for the liturgy, and to choose one over the other gets at the heart of the question…and I don’t think that what SESC does is simply following the received interpretation given the way that they sing just about anything.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • smt
    Posts: 65
    (Addition: Other pieces were sung, that's why so little time was left for the Vexilla...)

    Thanks for your input!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,367
    That doesn’t make sense if they were using the missal of Saint Pius V. Only the Vexilla regis is appointed for the procession to the altar with the chalice containing the presanctified Host.

    There’s no reason to cut that down; you cut down the music not needed for the adoration of the cross, as it should only last as long as adoration requires. There is no communion rite, so the length of the Vexilla regis beyond the procession and a reasonable period afterwards does not impact the rest of the rite, which is shockingly short.

    And I should point out too that too many musicologists and historians either don’t actually understand the missal of Saint Pius V or don’t show their work when they deviate — either to some local variation or to a pre-Tridentine local usage. So that shows how much respect I have for some of these performers and performance practices…
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • smt
    Posts: 65
    I had to re-read the article.

    There was no other piece sung, I mis-remembered that. You're right, there is just the Vexilla. Furthermore, Bruckner heard 2 (not only one) verses of his motet. He rehearsed verses 1-3 and 6-7 of "his" text version of the Vexilla.

    Verses 4-5 were the ones which are written next to the music in the autograph, but we have the choir material of St Florian, the copies for the singers. They do not contain verses 4-5. It is unclear whether it was planned to omit them or sing them as plainchant.

    However, we have a historical record which states that only heard 2 verses were sung as the procession was toi short. If that shows a poor understanding of the missal of Saint Pius V. you have to blame the 1890s St Florian clerics, not the musicologists (although I do not doubt their general ignorance in liturgical matters).
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,092
    A liturgically correct version would be more "authentic" than a historically informed one. We don't do historically-informed liturgy, generally (maybe the ICK...)
    Also, if v. 4-5 were to be done in HIP plainchant, it would need to be Medicean/Pustet chant, which is also not authentic to the magisterium.
    Thanked by 1smt
  • smt
    Posts: 65
    Apropos "liturgically correct"... We are singing the Vexilla for Exaltatio Crucis. One would have to change the text from "hoc passionis tempore" to "in hac triumphi gloria" which I have never seen or heard for the Bruckner piece.

    And btw ... do you think some plainchant verses would fit musically in between?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,789
    The Vexilla Regis was written as a processional Hymn, Venantius Fortunatus, wrote 3 Hymns for the occasion, I suspect they covered the processional aspects of the Liturgy for the reception of the relic. Perhaps there were 3 processions with each hymn long enough to cover the time, or perhaps they followed the practice as seen on Palm Sunday of singing multiple items during a procession.

    A Processional Hymn is designed to cover the time needed to process, this can be seen in the Salve Festa Dies, The Easter version is very long as it needed to cover the time needed to process between churches... Other versions vary in length no doubt to fit the time needed.

    For the Vexilla Regis, the 8 original verses had 2 added to the end, including a doxology, This was possibly done so the Hymn could be used for the Office. Office hymns have various lengths but are generally shorter in the Roman Breviary, this involves chopping longer hymns up such as the Jesu Dulcis Memoria. The Vexilla Regis used as an Office hymn has only 6 or 7 verses.

    When used as a processional I suspect the verses found in the Graduale covered the exact time needed for the Procession in a certain church. The reason why verses were omitted was no doubt due to the shorter procession time.

    It is sad that we now have an inflexible Liturgy and Rubrics, with a fixed length processional hymn with no opportunity to add or subtract verses to cover the Liturgical action. It was not always thus for example here in England we have the Sarum Use that was designed particularly for our needs.
    Thanked by 1Roborgelmeister
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