Organ during the Last Gospel
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    Can anyone provide any authoritative sources on the playing of the organ during the Last Gospel?

    I’ve seen opinions in both directions - but without any sources to back them up.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,329
    It is customary. De Musica sacra does not prohibit it if you follow strict Pius XII/1962 rubrics. I much prefer organ, or silence when solo organ isn’t allowed, to the Marian antiphon, as the celebrant and ministers cannot pray that and the Gospel at once. I will check when I get home to see if Stercky says anything. But it is most certainly allowed.
  • It is customary.

    In some places certainly, but not at our parish, or most others that I've be to.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,329
    Yeah it’s not well-known in the US, but outside of it, silence during the Last Gospel (including the Marian antiphon, which I dislike, as I said) is far from the norm.

    We didn’t have organ today, and it is a very bad habit to read the Last Gospel out loud, which comes out without the organ there.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,187
    We sing a vernacular hymn if Sung, and stand (with genuflection) if Low. The hymn continues as a recessional.

    (Father does not read it out loud. I can't imagine how the Vikings are supposed to hear it, even though Father is facing North.)
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    And here we are, yet again... No actual authoritative sources addressing the specific point!

    The scan of Fortescue's instructions for his organist is not authoritative either, having no proper references for its instructions.

    I can see contextually how it might be appropriate to play the organ during the Last Gospel on the basis that a bishop celebrating Pontifical Mass is permitted to recite it privately in procession, rather than at the altar - but was hoping for something stronger than this as an authority in either direction.
  • Yeah, sorry that I don't know any real sources.

    The idea of organ during the last Gospel is rather novel to me, but I would imagine that if the organist is really good at improvising and playing off the liturgy so to speak, it could fit really nicely. Just a gentle interlude, perhaps starting with referencing the tone of the Ite Missa est just used, then it gradually wanders into more open teritory, perhaps referencing whatever other ideas are expressed by the Propers and particular to that day. Then as the priest finishes the last Gospel, the organist transitions toward the mode of the Marian Antiphon, and ends with a little intro from which the choir can easily begin the antiphon.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    begin playing softly after "ET VERBUM CARO FACTUM EST,
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,329
    And here we are, yet again... No actual authoritative sources addressing the specific point!


    The obvious answer is “there is a lacuna”. I understand your frustration, but “asked and answered, counselor”. There is always more to say, perhaps, but if even the legislation on sacred music doesn’t mention it, it’s hard to get a definitive answer, as the AAS are hard to find and search, for a number of reasons.

    The working assumption really does seem to be that, at least before 1957, if the choir wasn’t singing, you could play the organ unless it was prohibited, and there were rubrics governing organ replacement of parts of the ordinary, Vespers etc.
  • Perhaps ubi lex non distinguit, nec nos distinguere debemus applies?

    I'm open to being proven wrong in liturgical law, but as far as I know there is not any authoritative source (as observed by the OP). Therefore, I say it can be decided at the parish level unless a higher authority passes down a ruling. I personally prefer organ during the Last Gospel at a Sung Mass, and like to improvise building up to the Marian antiphon or other hymn/piece for the final procession.

    I have also worked under pastors who forbade the practice, but without any citation of liturgical law.
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,023
    IMO, stealing the practice from ICKSP, and having a congregational Marian Antiphon during the LG, is one of the best moves I’ve made.

    It feels no different than the other moments at Mass when the celebrant does his thing and we do ours, and we have a couple devotional prayers specific to our community after the LG and before the recessional hymn, so any time differential is covered by Father kneeling and getting the card for prayer.

    Also having robust, familiar congregational song in the form of the antiphon right before the hymn makes everyone more likely to sing what is put in front of them, and to react less violently to an unfamiliar hymn.

    The congregation were electric about it when it started and still seem to love it.

    Our church is dedicated to Our Lady, so this helps.
  • My practice has been this:
    During Advent and Lent the celebrant reads the Last Gospel silently and raises his voice at the words “ET VERBUM CARO FACTUM EST” alone.
    After the conclusion, he comes to the foot of the altar and intones the Marian Antiphon.

    In Eastertide, I play a little ditty overtop of the Last Gospel, then the celebrant comes to the foot of the altar where he intones the Regina Cæli.

    For the rest of the year I simply begin my postlude after the blessing, which seems to solemnize the action whilst the servers take their places for the exit.

    Only in Low Masses is the Last Gospel read aloud, where I am.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,023
    Here's how the Marian Antiphon, devotion, hymn flow feels.

    End of the Postcommunion, Ite, Benediction, Salve (over Last Gospel), St. Joseph Prayer, O praise ye the Lord, BWV 669, from July 23rd of last year (summer Sunday with call choir).
    End of Mass July 23 2023.mp3
    14M
  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 314
    i play all the time during last gospel, softly, usally improv based loosely on the Ite
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,329
    We do Last Gospel with organ, then antiphon. My pastor insists on it so he can follow; this is one hiccup in ever using the solemn tones on special occasions (major feasts).
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    And we’re back to customs yet again! I’m not sure that there is complete silence on this point, MatthewRoth. It is possible there are sources that have not been explored yet - including the published decisions of the relevant congregation. Those are the kinds of sources I’m asking about here.

    I expect also that Fortescue based his advice on something other than a whim - and that being done with ‘Ceremonies’, did not want to create anything resembling it ever again!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,832
    I always play softly and lead into the Marian antiphon.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,329
    If Stercky does not condemn the practice with a reference to the Roman authorities, then it probably was never taken up by them, because he does so in many cases where it is clear that he is condemning an abuse known to him and the authors who initiated the volumes of which he was the final editor. But in fact, he doesn’t mention it at all, even though wall-to-wall music, the way that I was taught as essential and really something that I came to love while learning under Nick Botkins at SFDS years ago now, is characteristically French, suggesting that it really is about custom…

    I understand and have from the beginning what you’re after, and I’m afraid that you need to go look in AAS yourself. Which is not an easy task.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    AAS won’t have what I’m looking for, MatthewRoth - the Acta are not there to provide detailed rubrical guidance or responses to individual questions of this kind.

    It’s far more likely to be addressed somewhere among the decrees of the Sacred Congregation of Rites.

    This is why I’m putting the question out to the entire forum (but particularly those scholars with a working knowledge of these sources).
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 286
    There are decrees stating that it is not permissible to begin the singing of a canonical hour or the absolution at the catafalque (pre-1960 rubrics) during the Last Gospel. Terry says that the organ is played during the Last Gospel (whenever organ playing is permitted) and that at Sunday Mass in England the Domine salvum fac regem is sung during the Last Gospel. I don't think you'll find an S.R.C. dubium response regarding what was a widespread practice, because who would have asked such a thing?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,329
    Right, that too.

    We’ve done our best, and I double and triple-checked Stercky. No dice. For future reference, decrees of the Roman congregations were (are) published in the AAS — this was certainly the case for the Sacred Congregation of Rites! I just had a look the other day. I find the numbering scheme of the older decrees hard to keep straight, and the AAS is prone to mistakes or being compiled in an untimely manner. But same with Notitiae (as an aside; that ought to come back). Nevertheless such a decree would be there if it exists and if it was properly compiled. Unfortunately, you usually have to work backwards from a citation to then find the text in the AAS.
  • ntnch1776
    Posts: 13
    The index and Ctrl-F of the Decrees of the Sacred Congregation of Rites (from the years 1588 to 1911) yielded no obviously relevant results.

    Searchable PDFs of a compilation of the Decrees are available at https://www.restorethe54.com/resources/ (about halfway down, under "Legal Resources").
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • L_CrottiL_Crotti
    Posts: 8
    We tend to differentiate between the read Mass (no organ usually during the week) and low Mass with organ, since the latter as the one “cum canticis” are considered more solemn because of the added music the rules of the LG said loud at the read mass don’t apply.
    On a low mass with organ I usually do a little postlude if the final antiphon is rather short then the congregation starts singing, otherwise if we sing Salve Regina or a longer hymn I usually start right after the benediction. I prefer like so since if the last gospel and the antiphon/hymn are ending around the same time there is room for another recessional hymn or a longer organ postlude
    Thanked by 1DavidOLGC
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 286
    because of the added music the rules of the LG said loud at the read mass don’t apply
    Is there some authority for this other than local custom?
  • Nisi
    Posts: 153
    From Psallite Sapienter, by B. Andrew Mills, published by the Church Music Association of America © 2008:
    "80. If the Last Gospel be read aloud, the music should not be commenced until after the Gospel and its response Deo gratias have been said; if the Last Gospel be read silently, the music may begin after the genuflection. Note that the Last Gospel is omitted on several occasions:
    a. Whenever the dismissal is Benedicamus Domino, or in Masses for the Dead followed by Absolution. In these cases, there is no opportunity for music to be added, since an official rite follows immediately.
    b. On Christmas Day (third Mass) and Palm Sunday (at the principal Mass), and at the Easter Vigil. Here the additional music may be commenced after the celebrant has given the final blessing."
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 286
    That is in the High Mass section, which is a bit odd, because the Last Gospel is read silently at High Mass according to general rubric 513e, and aloud at Low Mass according to 511j. It's not a matter of the priest taking his pick.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    Thanks so much for your contributions on this, FSSPMusic.

    As it turns out, Terry acknowledges Monsignor Wallace, Master of Ceremonies for the Diocese (sic) of Westminster as a key contributor to section IV of his book.

    I am still trying to find more information about Wallace’s life and work - and crucially where his papers are deposited.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    FSSPMusic - Which general rubric applies to Missa Cantata?
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 286
    514. In sung Masses, that is, those sung without sacred ministers, the celebrant must observe what has been said in the preceding section, and he must sing the parts proper to the sacred ministers. The epistle may be sung by a lector. If it is not sung by a lector, it will be satisfactory for the celebrant to read it without chant; the celebrant may, however, sing the epistle in the usual way.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    Thanks - By observing what is said in the preceding section (presumably 513), we seemingly have the basis for a silent recitation of the Last Gospel at Missa Cantata.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,784
    and that at Sunday Mass in England the Domine salvum fac regem is sung during the Last Gospel

    This would perhaps be the older text with the Gloria Patri, The Versicle and Response part of the prayer is very short, and leads straight on to the Prayer that is said by the Celebrant... He can't say this until he has finished the Last Gospel.

    Perhaps they started singing it towards the end of the Gospel. Scans of books with the Prayer can be found here, https://societyofstbede.wordpress.com/domine-salvum-fac/
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    A deeper dive into Terry is proving most interesting. Thanks again FSSPMusic for the gift that keeps on giving!

    Specifically, Terry cites Gavantus at one point. I took a look at Gavantus to see whether there was any specific mention of the Last Gospel and what the organist should (or shouldn't!) do. Nothing so far. What IS there, which I think does shed more light on the situation is the range of circumstances in which the Last Gospel was replaced with the Gospel of the Sunday (etc) because the Mass of the Sunday had in turn been displaced by another Mass. Pius X happily restored the preeminence of the Sunday, so most of this kind of rubrical wrangling has been out of existence for more than 100 years now.

    Historically, it seems a situation emerged in which the Last Gospel would not have been said silently after all Solemn Masses. Against this backdrop, some ambiguity as to whether or not the organ was to be played makes perfect sense.

  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    Postscript: Fortescue's admonition to remove the Last Gospel card if another Gospel is to replace it also makes perfect sense, as this would have provided a suitable long-distance visual cue to the organist.
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 286
    I'm curious why you would think a proper Last Gospel would be read aloud at Solemn High Mass even though the ordinary one would not. I checked the 1920 edition of Fortescue, which says that the final blessing said aloud "is the only case of words spoken (not sung) in this manner at High Mass." The 1943 edition says the following:
    If there is a last Gospel special to the day, the celebrant should wait before giving the blessing, that the subdeacon may have time to carry the Missal across. He turns to give the blessing [footnote: He should wait till the sung response, “Deo gratias,” is finished. He says the formula of blessing just as at Low Mass, that is loud enough to be heard by all (R. XII, 1, 7).] and says the last Gospel in a low tone.
    And the 2009 edition:
    If there is a last Gospel proper to the day, the celebrant should wait before giving the blessing, so that the subdeacon may have time to carry the missal across. He turns to give the blessing [footnote: He should wait till the sung response, Deo gratias, is finished. He says the formula of blessing just as at low Mass, that is to say, loud enough to be heard by all (R., XII, 1, 7).] and says the last Gospel silently.
    Thanked by 2Palestrina tomjaw
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    My thought on this is that Fortescue is the ultimate compilation of all the authorities in one place (at least for the use of Anglosphere) and that in the preceding centuries, there may not have been the same clarity on this particular point. I don't find it in Gavantus, for instance.
    Thanked by 2FSSPmusic tomjaw
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    That is not to say that a silent recitation of a proper Last Gospel did not occur in places, only that on points such as this, there is a greater likelihood of disparity.

    I am not making an argument for what is or isn't rubrically correct at this point - only the ways in which local usage (guided or misguided) may have coloured performance practice, and why there is some lingering doubt on this issue.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw