Pop Quiz: What do you do?
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Okay, who knows the film reference of the thread title? First respondant gets an mp3 recording of "Another One Rides the Bus" by Weird Al.

    Pop Quiz:
    You go to a local EF Mass in your diocese for the first time. You're armed with PBC, GR, Liber U, etc. There's a small schola. A hundred or so folks present. FSSP celebrant. You respectfully demur to the schola for the Propers. You join the congregants with the responses to the collects and preface, etc. However, when the Ordinary (Orbis Factor) and Credo I is chanted, NO ONE sings with the schola! Gasp!!! What do you do? WHAT DO YOU DO? (That's my best "Dennis Hopper" in this medium.)
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I'll pray, and have the schola keep singing. People will sing when they are ready to sing. We cannot control that. We do our best and He will take care of the rest. Also I hear too often "singing is praying twice..' Maybe people are learning how to pray once first for now. That's not too bad I don't think.
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 833
    * Respect the local custom, which violates no norms or traditions.
    * Expect to learn from a licit liturgical experience outside of one's expectations.
    * Leave all those books at home: rely more on the ear.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    As an easterner looking in, I see it as regrettable that the EF became so clericalized the people in essence, became spectators. That never should have happened. I have found, despite papal exhortations to the contrary, the practice of not singing is ingrained and continues. In the OF, however, my congregation will sing the Latin Ordinary with no problem. Perhaps the expectations are different for the two rites? I don't know. You can't make them sing, and sometimes attempting to do so will create a backlash and they will never sing.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Well, when I attended the EF, I went with my LU and sang the propers. So there.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    If you are female, pull your veil up around your face so no one can see your mouth move and sing along.

    If you are male....why are you wearing a veil?
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Besides androgynous trickery, bald-faced assertiveness and condescension, I'm kind of interested in hearing something legislative along the philosophical/practical lines that CharlesW observed. I mean, it sort of sounds like the Wild West thus far.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Well, apart from being shy (and I've been there!) I don't see any reason to hold back, unless you want to set a good example to the "tone deaf" people around you by not singing.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    And yet people can get fussy about this. I recall about a year ago, at the first EF Mass in my parish in 40 years, one disgruntled traddy had only one comment following the Mass: "I hate the dialogue Mass."
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Agreed with CharlesW's sentiments.

    What I would do is observe: if NO ONE (not one person) is singing, I presume it is the custom at this parish not to sing the ordinary and thus remain silent. Perhaps if I intended to return, I would ask someone after Mass "Does one sing the ordinary here?"

    If it's a few people singing, I'll join in. I don't like the custom of the choir alone singing music that could easily be extended to the congregation, but I would respect the tradition (and probably not return to that Mass).
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 774
    "...the EF became so clericalized the people in essence, became spectators."

    We really need a more nuanced description of praying Catholics who choose not sing, other than dismissing them as mere spectators. It's an old and very tired caricature, especially since, in my experience, EF adherents are much more likely to admire, understand, and spiritually participate in the liturgy than a good many modern (albeit noisier) Catholics.
  • Kallen
    Posts: 9
    Richard R.

    Thank you for your comment.

    On the occasion that I'm not leading musicians in the loft, and have the privilege
    to attend the EF of the Holy Mass in the pews, I usually limit my singing to the responses only.
    I pray standing, kneeling, or sitting while the musicians "on duty" sing the Ordinary and the Proper.
    I could sing along from memory, most of the Ordinary and some of the Proper chants that I encounter on these occasions, but I prefer to remain silent, though fully engaged. I'm not a spectator, and would not like to be judged as one by a casual observer.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Kallen, I'm with you. Although I direct schola too, in EF Mass, I sing mostly internally and I cherish that.

    I understand that many music director these days are somehow under the pressure to make people sing and even measure their success on how many people open their mouth. Singing should be done from the hearts of the singers to be a prayer. If people chose to pray by internally meditating on the prayers and not vocalizing necessarily, their choice should be respected.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Again, you can't make anyone sing, and also can't be very forceful about trying to get them to. My basis for comparison is the east, since I am Byzantine, where the congregation knows all the chants and nearly everyone sings.

    There's no surprise in western liturgy becoming clericalized, because nearly everything else in the western church was at one point. I think one of the good things from Vatican II is the increase in people participation in the liturgy. Goodness knows, St. Pius X certainly tried to get them to participate many years before with little success.

    For the record, I don't participate in EF masses and have no real reason to ever want to. I play and conduct for OF masses - 4 each Sunday - then worship in my Byzantine church later in the day. Most people in the OF congregations sing the Ordinary, with a few who don't. I don't really do anything special to get them to participate. But I do find repetition and the lack of musical surprises results in better congregational singing.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    For how long has this local EF Mass been offered?
    Was the congregation expecting Missa VIII (de angelis) and unfamiliar with Missa XI (orbis factor)?

    Were your pew-mates equally armed (Liber Usualis, Parish Book of Chant, ...)
    or provided with a pew-sheet of some sort?

    My answer is: you do what the Church asks, even if your singing occurs at a low volume.
    To remain silent is to cave in to peer pressure.

    And, if challenged after Mass, maybe you could muse aloud:
    I wonder if folks had been singing the Ordinary all those years (Pius X, ..., John XXIII),
    would Vatican II have been necessary? :-)
  • Ava
    Posts: 8
    Tough question!

    I'm usually to shy to sing along with the schola at my parish during the propers of the Mass. I know I'd stand out, as it's all male, and the few times I've timidly done it I was afraid I was drawing attention to myself. However, I would be more than happy to sing along provided someone else was doing it too! I do feel though, that silent prayer for the propers is also just as beautiful during the a Low Mass in the Extraordinary Form. Yet a High Mass or Ordinary Form Mass is a different story!
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    I would sing along, probably. I've been to one EF Mass where over half sang the Ordinary, but when Credo III came along, half the singers dropped out because it just more complicated and unfamiliar. In time, more of them will sing it. Since I can sightread the neumes in the PBC so long as the schola knows what they're doing, I sing along. I sing along at a normal volume if I am very familiar with something, and quietly if I am sightreading, but audibly, still.

    If no one ever sings, no one will ever start singing. I've never heard of any local custom to not sing the ordinary. I do know that it is custom in many places, however, for only men (i.e. the men in the schola) to sing the propers, so I don't sing along with the propers at EF Masses. If later someone told me I shouldn't sing the ordinary there, I would stop, and then try to join the schola. ^_^
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Please keep the commentary coming, folks.
    I'm not prepared to illuminate any more details beyond what I asked in the original post right now. That wouldn't be fair to anyone. I appreciate that everyone's not regarded this as esoteric concerns.
    When one comes back from colloquiums/intensives, one generally knows what you're returning to at your home base of operations. However, because of profound changes in latitude and attitude at such watershed experiences, when you venture out to "participate" in an EF Mass whose "community and traditions" (as eft inquires about) aren't known, larger issues arise within you out of these smaller, parochial issues. That probably doesn't make much sense.
    Suffice it to say, the experience WAS Mass.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    CharlesCCA: "I'm kind of interested in hearing something legislative"

    You know this is the bait that I am most attracted to.
    I will limit my replies to pre-Vatican Two documents.

    1903-nov-22 Tra le sollicitudine [Italian]
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-x_motu-proprio_19031122_sollecitudini_it.html
    http://www.adoremus.org/TraLeSollecitudini.html

    3. [... the fourth paragraph]
    Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times.


    1928-dec-20 Divini cultus sanctitatem [Latin]
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xi_apc_19281220_divini-cultus-sanctitatem_lt.html
    http://www.adoremus.org/DiviniCultus.html

    [...]
    Voices, rather than instruments, ought to be heard in the church: the voices of the clergy, the choir and the congregation.
    [...]
    In order that the faithful may more actively participate in divine worship, let them be made once more to sing the Gregorian Chant, so far as it belongs to them to take part in it. It is most important that when the faithful assist at the sacred ceremonies, or when pious sodalities take part with the clergy in a procession, they should not be merely detached and silent spectators, but, filled with a deep sense of the beauty of the Liturgy, they should sing alternately with the clergy or the choir, as it is prescribed. If this is done, then it will no longer happen that the people either make no answer at all to the public prayers -- whether in the language of the Liturgy or in the vernacular -- or at best utter the responses in a low and subdued manner.
    [...]
    Let the clergy, both secular and regular, under the lead of their bishops and ordinaries devote their energies either directly, or through other trained teachers, to instructing the people in the Liturgy and in music, as being matters closely associated with Christian doctrine.
    [...]
    We are well aware that the fulfillment of these injunctions will entail great trouble and labor.
    [...]


    More soon ...
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    eft,
    Now we're talkin'!
    I've read but already forgotten most of the good stuff in Fr. Ruff's tome; so I ask "was any or all of 'Tra le sollicitudine' abrogated by any successive pre-conciliar documents?"
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Anyone who has not yet read, in its entirety, this Encyclical is really missing out.
    (Save your thoughts for your weblogs or start a separate discussion.)

    1947-nov-20 Mediator Dei
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

    [...]
    10. Let not the apathetic or half-hearted imagine, however, that We agree with them when We reprove the erring and restrain the overbold. No more must the imprudent think that we are commending them when We correct the faults of those who are negligent and sluggish.
    [...]
    23. The worship rendered by the Church to God must be, in its entirety, interior as well as exterior.
    [...]
    24. [...] The sacred liturgy requires, however, that both of these elements be intimately linked with each another.
    [...]
    105. Therefore, they are to be praised who, with the idea of getting the Christian people to take part more easily and more fruitfully in the Mass, strive to make them familiar with the "Roman Missal," so that the faithful, united with the priest, may pray together in the very words and sentiments of the Church. They also are to be commended who strive to make the liturgy even in an external way a sacred act in which all who are present may share. This can be done in more than one way, when, for instance, the whole congregation, in accordance with the rules of the liturgy, either answer the priest in an orderly and fitting manner, or sing hymns suitable to the different parts of the Mass, or do both, or finally in high Masses when they answer the prayers of the minister of Jesus Christ and also sing the liturgical chant.
    [...]
    191. As regards music, let the clear and guiding norms of the Apostolic See be scrupulously observed. Gregorian chant, which the Roman Church considers her own as handed down from antiquity and kept under her close tutelage, is proposed to the faithful as belonging to them also. In certain parts of the liturgy the Church definitely prescribes it;[171] it makes the celebration of the sacred mysteries not only more dignified and solemn but helps very much to increase the faith and devotion of the congregation. For this reason, Our predecessors of immortal memory, Pius X and Pius XI, decree - and We are happy to confirm with Our authority the norms laid down by them - that in seminaries and religious institutes, Gregorian chant be diligently and zealously promoted, and moreover that the old Scholae Cantorum be restored, at least in the principal churches. This has already been done with happy results in not a few places.[172]

    192. Besides, "so that the faithful take a more active part in divine worship, let Gregorian chant be restored to popular use in the parts proper to the people. Indeed it is very necessary that the faithful attend the sacred ceremonies not as if they were outsiders or mute onlookers, but let them fully appreciate the beauty of the liturgy and take part in the sacred ceremonies, alternating their voices with the priest and the choir, according to the prescribed norms. If, please God, this is done, it will not happen that the congregation hardly ever or only in a low murmur answer the prayers in Latin or in the vernacular."[173] A congregation that is devoutly present at the sacrifice, in which our Savior together with His children redeemed with His sacred blood sings the nuptial hymn of His immense love, cannot keep silent, for "song befits the lover"[174] and, as the ancient saying has it, "he who sings well prays twice." Thus the Church militant, faithful as well as clergy, joins in the hymns of the Church triumphant and with the choirs of angels, and, all together, sing a wondrous and eternal hymn of praise to the most Holy Trinity in keeping with words of the preface, "with whom our voices, too, thou wouldst bid to be admitted."[175]
    [...]
    194. We also exhort you, Venerable Brethren, to promote with care congregational singing, and to see to its accurate execution with all due dignity, since it easily stirs up and arouses the faith and piety of large gatherings of the faithful. Let the full harmonious singing of our people rise to heaven like the bursting of a thunderous sea[176] and let them testify by the melody of their song to the unity of their hearts and minds[177], as becomes brothers and the children of the same Father.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    1955-dec-25 Musicae Sacrae Disciplina
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_25121955_musicae-sacrae_en.html

    [...]
    31. The dignity and lofty purpose of sacred music consist in the fact that its lovely melodies and splendor beautify and embellish the voices of the priest who offers Mass and of the Christian people who praise the Sovereign God.
    [...]
    33. St. Augustine, speaking of chants characterized by "beautiful voice and most apt melody," says: "I feel that our souls are moved to the ardor of piety by the sacred words more piously and powerfully when these words are sung than when they are not sung, and that all the affections of our soul in their variety have modes of their own in song and chant by which they are stirred up by an indescribable and secret sympathy."[17]
    [...]
    46. We are not unaware that, for serious reasons, some quite definite exceptions have been conceded by the Apostolic See. We do not want these exceptions extended or propagated more widely, nor do We wish to have them transferred to other places without due permission of the Holy See. Furthermore, even where it is licit to use these exemptions, local Ordinaries and the other pastors should take great care that the faithful from their earliest years should learn at least the easier and more frequently used Gregorian melodies, and should know how to employ them in the sacred liturgical rites, so that in this way also the unity and the universality of the Church may shine forth more powerfully every day.

    47. Where, according to old or immemorial custom, some popular hymns are sung in the language of the people after the sacred words of the liturgy have been sung in Latin during the solemn Eucharistic sacrifice, local Ordinaries can allow this to be done "if, in the light of the circumstances of the locality and the people, they believe that (custom) cannot prudently be removed."[21] The law by which it is forbidden to sing the liturgical words themselves in the language of the people remains in force, according to what has been said.
    [...]
    62. As We have said before, besides those things that are intimately associated with the Church's sacred liturgy, there are also popular religious hymns which derive their origin from the liturgical chant itself.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    This sounds all good when the Bishop, priests and Musica directors understand the sacredness of the liturgy and the sacred music and help the congregation to understand the meaning of "he who sings well prays twice." Otherwise, most of the OF Mass I attends end up being a 'lip-worship,' which is much more than a distaction to me. What I've witness in many places is what our Pope warned us against active participation merely being external participation.
    What we sing should be the expression of praising God and joy of knowing He is truly with us in the Eucharist.
    My schola, both adult and children learn to pray and deepen their faith in order to "pray twice." I have many children and adults who are not used to singing, and even they came to learn chants in the schola, but still not confident in singing. I tell them it's ok that they just listen and pray with us inside. Eventually they end up singing and more eager to sing and pray now.
    Even if we don't understand every word of the prayers, if they are in the spirit of praising Him and have our mind filled with sense of the Presence of God, we will be truly singing and praying.

    I found in GIRM (12) "since no Catholic would now deny the lawfulness and efficacy of a sacred rite celebrated in Latin, the Council was also able to grant "the use of the vernacular language may frequently be of great advantage to the people." From this, how many people understand and remember the first part and just remember the second part of the statement. This is just an example how people are easily focused only on external aspect of the instruction. The VII explaines the importanace of the internal participation before it goes on to say about the external. It seems many people conveniently overlook what is important and requires the hard work. That's how all kinds profane music creeped in to the church. Just make people sing. I hope he people who are working on promoting sacred music doens't end up making the same mistakes.
    Also singing well as praying twice was more possible when this was going on, (quote from the post above)

    "Our predecessors of immortal memory, Pius X and Pius XI, decree - and We are happy to confirm with Our authority the norms laid down by them - that in seminaries and religious institutes, Gregorian chant be diligently and zealously promoted, and moreover that the old Scholae Cantorum be restored, at least in the principal churches. This has already been done with happy results in not a few places.[172]
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Due to the various Vatican reorgs over time,
    only some Congregation documents since Vatican Two (for surviving congregations?) are available at www.vatican.va
    Maybe they will enhance this area some day.

    1958-sep-3 De musica sacra et sacra liturgia
    http://www.adoremus.org/1958Intro-sac-mus.html

    [An exercise for the reader ...]
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    CharlesCCA: "read ... Fr. Ruff ... was any or all of 'Tra le sollicitudine' abrogated by any successive pre-conciliar documents?"

    The documents count.
    It is possible to confuse document content and book content.
    I have not read the Fr Ruff book.

    I stayed on topic for this Discussion, and limited quotes to Pre-Conciliar congregation chant.
    I did not see abrogation.
    If you have [discovered] a different position, give your quotes and supporting commentary.

    And let me repeat my conclusion:
    Listen to the Propers. Sing the Ordinary. Sing the dialogues.

    ---
    update: fixed typo: added [discovered]
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Thank you very much, eft.
    I think the concerns that Mia brings up regarding "lip service-mentality" participation at loosey-goosey OF's are compelling, yet don't necessarily overlap into my concerns in the Pop Quiz. My questions about whether "active participation" on the part of the laity prior to V2 were subject to formal ecclesial guidance were d-eft-ly intuited and addressed. And so, I'm reaching some nebulous initial conclusion that defining and culturing "active participation" transcends both the EF and OF in parish real-time, with real PIPs.

    PS, eft- I wrote this prior to your last post, I'm WITH you on this. I just mentioned Ruff because I'm embarrassed to have forgotten whatever he brought to bear with these concerns. You've been of immense help.
  • -b
    Posts: 55
    Excellent, eft! But how to cultivate the singing of the ordinary at the EF mass is a big challenge I face. During July, my choir was "off" for 3 weeks, but their assignment was to sing from downstairs, holding their PBC aloft for all to see. (Unfortunately these were all low masses, so they were singing plainsong hymns, not chant ordinaries.) Speaking of what may or may not be allowed, I think the EF low mass should not be allowed on Sundays in parishes!
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    Charles in CenCA,

    That happened to me at the OF once. It was the Mass IX Ordinary (Cum Jubilo), parts of which were not provided in the pamphlet but were indicated as "sung by choir". I sang along anyway, figuring it was the OF so congregational participation had to be at least licit. Afterward, I overheard someone complaining to the MD that "someone was singing along". People preferred to hear a pure, coordinated sound for a complicated tune than to have everybody sing along en masse. It doesn't strike me as an OF vs. EF thing.

    eft94530: "the documents count"

    Yeah, that's true, including that part of Ecclesia Dei Adflicta where the Pope calls for charity to heal the Church of her gaping, festering wound. The irregular chapels haven't emptied out in the last two years. How have I failed to bring about the unity desired?
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    eft, Here is the Vatican in 1958 qualifying the mandate to have the people sing:

    25. In solemn Mass there are three degrees of the participation of the faithful:

    a) First, the congregation can sing the liturgical responses. These are: Amen; Et cum spiritu tuo; Gloria tibi, Domine; Habemus ad Dominum; Dignum et justum est; Sed libera nos a malo; Deo gratias. Every effort must be made that the faithful of the entire world learn to sing these responses.
    b) Secondly, the congregation can sing the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass: Kyrie, eleison; Gloria in excelsis Deo; Credo; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei. Every effort must be made that the faithful learn to sing these parts, particularly according to the simpler Gregorian melodies. But if they are unable to sing all these parts, there is no reason why they cannot sing the easier ones: Kyrie, eleison; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei; the choir, then, can sing the Gloria, and Credo.

    Recommended Chants
    In connection with this, the following Gregorian melodies, because of their simplicity, should be learned by the faithful throughout the world: the Kyrie, eleison; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei of Mass XVI from the Roman Gradual; the Gloria in excelsis Deo, and Ite, missa est-Deo gratias of Mass XV; and either Credo I or Credo III. In this way it will be possible to achieve that most highly desirable goal of having the Christian faithful throughout the world manifest their common faith by active participation in the holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and by common and joyful song (Musicæ sacræ disciplina: AAS 48 [1956] 16).
    c) Thirdly, if those present are well trained in Gregorian chant, they can sing the parts of the Proper of the Mass. This form of participation should be carried out particularly in religious congregations and seminaries.


    My reading of the document is that it seems that the level of participation is expected to vary over time and place based on the skill and knowledge of the congregation. I don't read this instruction as giving every individual a right to participate everywhere according to his ability and inclination. It is probably up to the pastor, taking in mind the organic forces at work, to guide the people to participate at a certain level.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    At the EF, I think the people should sing the Ordinary and the responses. Leave the propers to someone else. I've been to Masses where everyone sings the Ordinary, where some sing the Ordinary, and where no one except the choir/schola sings the Ordinary.

    I tend to go with the flow since I'm a visitor.

    As eft, et al point out, the Church has consistently encouraged this singing for about 100 years now. Give it a couple of centuries more, and we'll be there.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    It's important to read documents, but isn't the next to talk about how we go about it? I thought the initial post of this thread was about "WHAT DO YOU DO? "
    While I appreciate all the documents cited above (as has been asked in the course of the discussion), I'd like to hear what musicians will do about this, as asked, in EF, without bringing the prevalent wrong idea of "active participation.'

    The EF goers attend this Traditional Mass for the sacredness and reverence and as the Mass where they can truly pray. This might have been intensified after Vatican II, because of the ridiculous non-sense shown in many OF. I have feeling that anything threatened the essence of what EF goers appreciate will bring out only negative reactions. Maybe if the OF Mass is straightened out and people learn to sing sacred music reverantly from their hearts, EF people will learn that the congregation singing in Mass is not so disruptive, but can be beautiful? Obviously the gab between EF and OF can be lessened by learning from each other (again, I'm not talking about the external aspects on the two different forms and mixing them. I'm talking about the Spirit of the Liturgy underlining the two forms.) In my opinion, there are more immediate needs and ample room for improvement in OF than in EF.

    -b
    We know low Mass is not as desirable as high Mass. But can this be a step towards the high Mass? Can schola provide all the music everyweek, especially for the beginning schola (even with the psalm tones.)?
    Maybe if you really want to have Sung Mass every week and if possible, divide the schola into two groups, Tuesday and Thursday schola for example, and take turn to sing every other Sunday? It's more work for the MD (who knows someone might come along from the schola and become an assistant director.), but the advantage is obviously less amount of music to learn for the schola and make them beautiful, and maybe more people can join becuase there are more practice days open. (some people might come to both practices. I have two groups, Monday group and Tuesday group. They are not big groups yet, but some even come to both practices. Although we don't have EF Mass yet in this area, but eventually that's what I'll do when we have EF, at least at the beginning stage.)
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Yes, Mia, absolutely....we are now trying to help "working God's purpose out."
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    CCCA's first post could be interpreted two ways; I took the narrower, and replied.
    Given my snarky parting statement, I thought it necessary to provide supporting material,
    and began assembling the info.

    CCCA's second post confirmed that my later posts would be more than an intellectual exercise, it was desired.
    I chose to limit the citations to pre-V2 documents because
    some EF parishioners will be more receptive to "Pope Pius [insert number here] said ..."
    and we could avoid a conversation killer "V2 said ...".

    I went into re-read-the-docs-and-post mode and did not read any other contributions.
    This cramming was enlightening.

    Having the official material presented, and all able to easily read the same,
    gives this Discussion a foundation for moving into the wider interpretation of CCCA's first post.
    Thanks everyone for your patience.

    Chrism, thanks for filling in the blank.
    After working in software companies for a few years,
    I began to hear my co-workers use the terms "verbose mode" and "terse mode"
    when talking about my emails. That post reflects the latter.
    I was contending with small-parish life:
    closing down the Parish Office for the day,
    coordinating transportation for a senior citizen parishioner to attend an already underway parish potluck dinner,
    unlocking and setting up the church for the weekly holy hour.

    CCCA, my Ruff reply was a second attempt at posting (lost the longer), time was dwindling, terse-mode required.

    -b, my parish is OF-only but the Sunday-After-First-Friday (SAFF)
    gets special treatment by using Missa VIII (de angelis).
    Every pew-end and pew-middle gets several pew-sheets of the Ordinary.
    Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus participation stabilized.
    In Sep 2007 I added the Gloria. I am planning to suggest that the choir start to learn the Credo,
    thinking that some day it might be introduced. The SAFF Offertory has settled into polyphonic propers.
    Success requires: a plan, consistency, patience.

    Chrism, ("How have I failed to bring about the unity desired?"), ouch! Every time I play a hymn
    I know I am failing in some way. It becomes more and more clear each week as I review the
    Gregorian Missal for the propers to guide hymn selection, and find few or none, and settle for
    a hymn that might reinforce a proclaimed scripture.
    There are music-related factors which I cannot control,
    and non-music-related factors which are even less controllable.
    A Latin Ordinary sung by "irregular" EF parishioners will not bring them home
    but it does show commitment to what the Church asks musically.
    A Latin Ordinary sung by OF parishioners may be the means by which they
    recapture the sense of the sacred, enough to consider the "irregular" concerns.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Thanks for the chronology, eft. Again, my deepest gratitude to you for all your posts. There is some measure of method to my madness that was apparent to you, at least if not others, in the initial post. Were I simply to recount an experience off the cuff, as I'm wont to do generally, that would have masked for myself and possibly others many greater aspects at play in the experience. And, just as importantly, I wouldn't want anyone to draw any sorts of conclusions about a particular worshipping community based upon my errant presuppositions or ignorance.
    I'm thinking that I would like to know more about this particular community; perhaps by interviewing the schola director, attending more of their Masses, and then offer up some sort of reflection that incorporates all of these perspectives, both personal and local, and universal and legislative.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    "I don't read this instruction as giving every individual a right to participate everywhere according to his ability and inclination."

    Every member of the faithful has the right--indeed, I would even say the responsibility--to recite at least the Creed together with the whole church, if he's able. You just can't tell someone to be quiet if they want to sing the Creed, can you? What kind of Christianity is this when someone is told that they can't sing the creed, of all things, at liturgy if they want to? I don't care how off key they are, even. If they believe it, and want to affirm the faith of the church among the congregation during liturgy, then by golly they should sing.

    No one can take the Creed away from me. The only word of the Creed I do not sing is filioque--for obvious reasons.

    Now, the OF does the wrong thing when it doesn't care about sanctity and reverence and good music and only cares about getting people to sing. The EF does the wrong thing when it cares so much about those things that it forgets the whole point of the Mass to begin with--worshiping God as a congregation. The whole reason there are responses is because the people said them originally.

    One thing I learned as a protestant was to recognize that even the most off-key singing could be, to God, the most beautiful prayer of the whole Sunday service.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Jam, we eastern Catholics don't say or sing "filioque" either, and by treaty with the Vatican are not required to do so. I think you are correct in assessing the extremes both forms of the Roman Rite go to. Neither is good.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Dear Charles, one thing you shall not do- wear the veil. You would make a scary woman, so pleeeeease leave the beauty thing to Wendy. She's got it!

    I agree with the folks who say sing the responses and ordinary, unless the pastor asks otherwise, perhaps waiting to transition to this. Singing along should not distract nor bother anyone, as long as you're following the choir, which I know you would do.

    Reading between the lines, and I may be way off, my biggest advice on what to do- don't give up on the EF or think of yourself as an outsider. You are a Catholic and this Mass is yours as much as anyone else's. I hope you felt welcome, but if you didn't, don't give up on the rich, beautiful, traditional worship. Remember how many of these people have been marginalized for a long time, and are just as imperfect as other Catholics, even though most are striving to live holy lives. I stayed away from the EF for years because of the unstable, critical vibe I sensed. And I really regret that now.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    I already make a scary guy, dearest MA! Giving up on the EF is not part of the equation, for both of us. And we were welcomed most hospitably by the schola leadership. I'm sure, given whatever time, our circles will gravitate towards closer union in this early stage of the EF Venn Diagram Experience. Love and prayers,
    C/W
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    Charles in CenCA - did you have to bring up Venn diagrams? It caused a high school math flashback.

    I think that everyone who thought that the moto proprio last year would bring Heaven to earth has been disappointed. This process of expanded EF Mass availability and the "uplifting" of the OF is a long-term project, despite heated comparison to the way in which changes were implemented in the late 60's/early 70's.

    Documents are wonderful - as guiding lights, as reinforcements for discussions. But it's the slow progress of "real life" that can wear one down.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Apparently, I live to confound. Rough going being both the comfortable and the afflicted, you know? Or neither.
    Thankfully, another voice from the wilderness brings succor to this discussion; from Chironomo's AU site:

    "Any church musician today committed to the “cause” of Sacred Music restoration can take heart from Dom Hourlier’s words about the “authority” of the Chant:

    The true authority of Gregorian chant rests not on rubrics or legislative decrees, but rather on the concensus populi (the common assent of the people of God) and the sensus ecclesiae(the supernatural sense of discernment of the church). Led by their Priests and Bishops, the faithful everywhere have always sung Gregorian chant. It draws its authority from a vast number of enthusiastic Catholic Christians. Throughout the ages, it has been the musical language in the Western Church. The authority of Gregorian chant is based on tradition.

    Amen."

    Well, back to reality, funeral at noon.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    so I ask "was any or all of 'Tra le sollicitudine' abrogated by any successive pre-conciliar documents?"

    No.

    However, there's a very interesting new book out there (reviewed online at InsightScoop.com,) which proposes that the Liturgical Movement was, perhaps, a bit flawed b/c it was based on Rationalism.

    Start here: http://dad29.blogspot.com/2009/07/philosophy-and-reform-of-reformed.html and follow the internal link to the review itself.

    The obvious question: when did the LitMovement go a bridge too far? Pius X? Pius XII?

    Or was it after Vatican II?
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