Kyrie - feedback wanted
  • So I composed a Kyrie, which for me is massive, since I'm not that great at composing, and this is one of the first composing projects that I've actually finished and not given up on half way through.

    I'd like to get better, so I'm hoping the musically knowledgeable people on this forum could give me some feedback to help me know where I need to improve. When you tell me what is wrong (or could be better), if you could get into some details about how and why, that would be great since I'm an amateur. I've mostly just been trying to figure things out from YouTube videos and observing the music of the greats.

    The intended style was something like Palestrina.
    Kyrie (9-2-23).pdf
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    Kyrie (9-2-23).mp3
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  • Thank you for sharing! I could easily imagine this at a Mass.

    I liked how the entrances of the voices were staggered as well as the imitation.

    It is unusual for the final cadence to be on a first inversion chord. Have you considered having the bass on F# or A# on the penultimate pitch? Also consider that the final chord could be open like the other cadences, or even use a Picardy third - depends on what you want. Do you imagine this leading to a Gloria?
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  • I like it. The only thing that jumped out to me was that your kyries enter in canonic form at the 3rd beat whereas your Christe isn’t until the 7th beat. I was expecting the second voice to begin like the others. Otherwise, it’s rather lovely.
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  • Thank you both for your kind comments.

    @SuscipeMeDomine
    For the final chord, I have been considering the possibilities for adjusting it. I don't think a Picardy third is what I'm looking for. F# or A# for the bass penultimate pitch would require a lot of reworking of the parts around it. One option that sounds pretty good to me is just dropping the final bass note from D down to B, but then the top and bottom parts are moving in parallel octaves, and I know that is supposed to be avoided. I'd be interested to hear any opinions on how much weight that rule should be given in this situation.

    Because of minor-ness of the Kyrie, I was more imagining it used for penitential times like Lent or a Requiem Mass when we wouldn't have a Gloria anyway. But I suppose it really could be either way. I was more just composing for practice and fun, not because we have any shortage of beautiful Kyries already available.

    @ServiamScores
    As far as the Christe goes, I guess it was somewhat intentional. I wanted the Christe part to feel a bit slower and sweeter, a little quieter and not quite as busy. Real voices would probably bring that out better than the string recording. I like canonic form, but I felt like doing it the same way each time would be too repetitive.
  • I like the start, but the parallels do stick out: The fifths ending Christe are quite un-Palestrinan. Octaves too: why not put in the bass at m15-16 something like "e(A)le(d)i(H)son(G)" and for the ending the suspension H-A# in the top voice?
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  • @Richard Mix
    I've founds the fifths and octaves, but what do you mean by (H)?
  • H is the European spelling of B natural.
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  • I like the ideas and affect.
    Have you studied species counterpoint? Or even free counterpoint a la Tilman Merritt? Or 4-part chorale writing as in Harmony 1? Because this doesn't sound at all like Palestrina, due to the parallels and irregular dissonance treatment, such as the leap to a 4th against the bass in m. 3. Your "species 1 value" here seems to be the quarter note, so the passing note in beat 4+ of m. 1 does nothing to hide the fifths between the 1st and 2nd measures. You do show a little flexibility in your entries, but there's always a tendency in young composers to write canon instead of imitation: a subject doesn't need to be long, nor does its repetition have to be exact.

    You've complained about facility. If you can find some way to do contrapuntal exercises with somebody, it will improve both that and the dissonance treatment.
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  • @Jeffrey Quick
    I have not studied counterpoint very seriously, just watched a few YouTube videos.
    I've found a lot of good information here: https://www.youtube.com/@MusicMattersGB
    and some more Palestrina/counterpoint/canon instructions here: https://www.youtube.com/@deinstitutionemusica

    I've watched quite a bit about 4-part harmony, and tried it a few times, it's definitely harder than it looks to make something that follows all the rules and still sounds how you want it to.

    I really don't have time to compose more than just occasionally for fun, but I would still like to get better, just because it is fun to make something of your own. I don't intend to compose professionally, or study at great lengths, I just want to get better at the basics.

    If you know of some counterpoint exercises that are free, I'd be very happy to give them a try. Otherwise, I can just try some more small pieces in various styles, and take more time to focus on quality rather than quantity.

    Also, I don't necessarily mind if my compositions don't sound like Palestrina (to a trained musician), as long as they sound beautiful and reverent. Palestrina has just been inspiration for me lately since we've been practicing so much of his beautiful music the last couple weeks.

    Thanks for your observations!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    Don’t get delayed or stuck by following very old excersizes in counterpoint… they will only have you copying medieval styles… “find your voice” by sitting at the piano or organ and playing out your gut. Write down your findings measure by measure. Listen to hundreds of hours of polyphonic works of Bach, buxtehude, couperin, froberger, zipoli, André, begue, commer, frescobaldi, grigny, pachelbel (Bach mimicked this guy), titelouze, Roberday, etc. avoid classical era (Beethoven, Mozart) although Haydn is good. Faure, Barber, Poulenc developed from the old math… Messiaen… avoid like the plague. Stravinsky… pure genius but beware of the modernist trappings. Debussy… incredible. After the baroque it all sprinted toward minimalism, the ultimate in musical imbecility. Glass finally emerged into humanity very late in his dev.
  • I've made some slight adjustments to the Kyrie to remove all the parallel fifths and octaves (I think) except for between measures 1 and 2. I think to remove that one, I'd have to re-write the whole thing, and with the passing note it doesn't sound too bad. For the final cadence I've played around with a lot of options, but I still like the sound of the first inversion the best.

    I've started listening to more Pachelbel, and his stuff is really fantastic.
    Kyrie Eleison 9-9-23.pdf
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    Kyrie Eleison 9-9-23.mp3
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