Thousands and Thousands of Invalid Masses
  • This is, clearly, more serious than bad music, but bad music is still serious and needs to be repudiated and halted.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,707
    Bad theology (aka liturgy) leads to bad music… clear up the theology and the music will follow.
  • That could be true. But then there is the case of the pre-conciliar Masses perpetually having bad music. Hence the necessity of Tra le Sollecitudini or a myriad of other writings on music in the liturgy over the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. If I follow your logic, then the theology (aka liturgy) of that time was deficient as seen by the music so bad it necessitated papal intervention.

    If you're arguing that, I could be convinced. Clearly the Vatican II saw a connection by speaking of music in Sacrosantum Concilium.
    Thanked by 2LauraKaz DavidOLGC
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,778
    What I find fascinating in all this is that the bar is actually quite low. We are called to offer the best we can, but the requirements for the essential elements are actually quite modest. I suppose the same is true for music to a certain degree.
  • Beyond horrible.

    Kyrie eleison.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores tomjaw
  • PolskaPiano
    Posts: 255
    From the article:
    Lefebvre wrote the aforementioned statements in the 1980’s, and what he saw or heard of is evidently still happening today… Imagine how grave the problem must be, and has been, for decades.

    There may be grown Catholic adults out there who have never received a valid Holy Communion.

    This is much less an informative article than it is an SSPX recruitment. "Could YOUR mass be invalid? Come on over to the SSPX!"
  • Michael,
    the pre-conciliar Masses perpetually having bad music.

    is too broad, but yes, there were problems, varying from place to place. Sometimes it was a question of sloppy execution of otherwise good music, sometimes it was a kind of syncretism, sometimes devotional schlock [please note, not all devotional music is schlock].

    If I follow your logic, then the theology (aka liturgy) of that time was deficient as seen by the music so bad it necessitated papal intervention.

    I think you overstate the case. Bad theology leads to bad music, to be sure, but the Anglicans can show that bad theology doesn't always and everywhere yield execrable music. Bad music can arise from more than one cause, and Bad Theology is certainly the most sure cause.

    The bad theology, though, isn't in the liturgy itself, in the time before the most recent council. Jesuits, who used to be famous for something called casuistry, have never been much on liturgy -- hence the simile, "As lost as a Jesuit in Holy Week", and the Jesuits produced Glory and Praise but they have also produced great saints.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw LauraKaz
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 430
    I do not believe in God who is so small-minded that sincerely made prayers are invalid just because someone used low-alcohol wine (or whatever).
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,778
    Are we to presume that the priests “intended what the church intends” when they were deliberately ignoring formally decreed norms for the most important part of mass? Honest question. I would suppose that priests who are that loosey-goosey very likely have equally loosey-goosey theology. One can learn an awful lot about a priest (and what he believes) by watching how he conducts himself st the altar, particularly during the consecration and the purification.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw francis LauraKaz
  • Pax,

    I don't believe in a small-minded God either, but since it's not God's mind that's at issue, truly, you've missed the point. God calls us to obedience to His law. A woman who disguises herself and gets to the point where a bishop would lay his hands on the ordinand's head would still not be ordained, no matter what the bishop said. IF the bishop knew he was attempting to ordain a woman, that would be simulation of a sacrament -- pretending to do God's will -- and a grave sacrilege.

    Sincerely made prayers are just that: sincerely made prayers. They're tremendously valuable. (St. Francis de Sales and St. Thomas Aquinas have a bunch to say about this topic). A priest who knowingly uses invalid matter has done more than merely make the sacrament not be confected. He is mocking God. That's never a good idea.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,707
    I do not believe in God who is so small-minded that sincerely made prayers are invalid just because someone used low-alcohol wine (or whatever).

    Let’s carry your preposition to its logical conclusion.

    The God you believe in isn’t concerned with rule of law? So then, why have ANY rules, rubrics or requirements for anything? It then follows there really is no need for the sacraments and it’s particulars then. And in fact, why don’t we just go out into the middle of nature and use that as an excuse as our cathedral? This kind of philosophy is a slippery slope of exponential fall-off, and very quickly dissolves into chaos.

    In the gospels, Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill its every iota.

    Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

    Therefore, he expects us to follow the laws he established and his successors.
    Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Matthew 18:18
    There are three requirements as set down by the church in confecting a sacrament…


    They all MUST be followed or the the sacrament is simply invalid.

    Everyone can bash Lefebvre and the SSPX, but this is the essence of why he did what he did. He was a shepherd concerned for his sheep and the eternal destiny of souls. Plain and simple.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Pax,

    I think you've misunderstood that the Mass is not merely "sincerely made prayers". The prayer "Lord, let me pass this exam", or "Lord, let my children get home safely tonight" or "Lord, let this pregnancy test be negative", or "Lord, thank you for my life and my wife and my children" are sincere prayers, presumptively, but they're not the Mass. They can be offered in the context of the Mass -- we call that part of the participation of the lay faithful -- and the priest can sincerely pray for the intention connected to a Mass stipend, but if he does so in a bakery, using ritz crackers and coke, his sincere prayer is still sincere, but not connected to the Mass -- which didn't take place.

    Far from being about a small-minded God, it's about the fact that this God knows us more than we know ourselves, and so He told us how to behave and what to believe (the truth) in order to fulfill our destiny, that is, being forever with Him in heaven. That God gave particular authority to the apostles, telling them to retain some sins rather than forgive them. That God told the apostles to go and baptise men of every nation, teaching them and commanding them. IF the command had no substance..... how loving would God be ?
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,778
    “What ye bind in earth will be bound in heaven…”

    It’s perfectly legitimate for the church to clarify the conditions which are required for consecration to take place. Ironically, there ARE allowances for imperfections, such as the fact that the priest could be in a state of mortal sin but still confect the sacrament as long as he has proper matter and form, and intends what the church intends. But here we are dealing with a case of improper matter, and thus the sacrament is not confected, even if our Lord could, in His infinite mercy, decide to grant graces just the same. But such graces would be granted outside the ordinary economy of graces that He Himself established.

    There’s no doubt this situation is a cause of grave scandal. There’s also no doubt that we can deprive ourselves of graces by not following God’s law, and therefore we do real damage. That is clearly what has happened here.