• Jani
    Posts: 441
    Sacrosanctum Concilium has not been useful to me in determining whether an influx of people in so great a number changes the vernacular from the language of the native people. There are some in my parish who insist that the vernacular is now considered to be Spanish- this includes some Anglophones who shrug their shoulders and say “oh well.”
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,039
    There doesn't have to be only one vernacular language in a country, region or parish.
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    So the concept is outdated. Gotcha.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CharlesW
  • TCJ
    Posts: 977
    Latin.

    Latin.

    Latin.

    Down with the vernacular and the tower of Babel. People using all sorts of different languages is a curse, not a boon.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    One of the reasons Bugnini was keen to promote Latin chant (Jubilate Deo; GS) was that there was, and still is, no one vernacular in Italy : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Italy In particular the language of Rome/Lazio is not 'standard Italian'. Hat tip to Fr Z for this picture.
    1536 x 2048 - 428K
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Hawkins,

    Bugnini didn't want to promote Latin or chant, so I would find it difficult (but not impossible) to conclude that in Italy, specifically he wished to promote Latin chant.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    ChrisG-Z, look again at his book, note the pride in GS and his struggle to get it published, and that the last liturgical episode is a complaint that his promotion of simple chants for the Holy Year was block[ed by CIMS [with which CMAA is affiliated!] .
    You can't understand him (we may not want to) without knowing that almost his only practical experience as a liturgist was success in promoting congregational chant in a slum chapel in Rome.
  • His disdain for musicians is palpable on every page in which music is discussed.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,955
    I am a musician, yet I have wanted to strangle a goodly percentage of those I have had to work with.

    Give the Bug-man a break.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,778
    All I’ll add is that I work at a bilingual parish, and it sure would be lovely to just chant Latin ordinaries and unify the masses. One pater noster between them would be great. Even the lowliest of our immigrants is literate, even if they aren’t “educated”. It’s not that hard, folks. (To be clear, we are working in the direction of that which I propose. I just wish we would get there faster, is all. Don’t we all.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,955
    Was Bugnini even a musician?
  • Charles,

    No, not to my knowledge.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CharlesW
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    Bugnini's disdain for professional church musicicians is not a disdain for music. It is a clear, overwhelming, preference for Mass to be sung by the priest and people together, GIRM §39-41. Bugnini also disdained the missa lecta.
    GIRM §41 is new in 2002, but it is the heart of the dispute.
    [priority to Gregorian chant] ... Other kinds of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful....
  • Hawkins,

    No offence intended, but regardless of what the document appears to say, in Bugnini's hands the "provided that...." is the equivalent of my saying that I wholeheartedly embrace the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion provided that their use is entirely consistent with the constant practice of the Church for two millenia.

    IT's an empty set.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,731
    @a_f_hawkins I will hand back the hymn book, and refuse to sing if the music is not worthy of the Mass, so I for one would not be participating. So 'all the faithful' is doing a lot of work above...
    Today there was not a moment during Mass that all the Faithful were singing together, but many of the faithful told me afterwards that the music aided their prayer, so they may not have been singing but they were still participating. What Bugnini and the GIRM write is meaningless on many levels.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,409
    Does not sacred silence foster participation? GIRM has always made a feature of sacred silence. Obviously polyphony does not encourage the faithful in the average parish to join in singing it. So participation has a broader meaning than exercising the vocal cords; "the music aided their prayer",
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • francis
    Posts: 10,707
    A_F

    I’m sure a number of us here are glad you understand what “active participation” means
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 430
    Sacrosanctum Concilium has not been useful to me in determining whether an influx of people in so great a number changes the vernacular from the language of the native people. There are some in my parish who insist that the vernacular is now considered to be Spanish- this includes some Anglophones who shrug their shoulders and say “oh well.”


    Surely there would be very few parts of America where a First Nations (ya know, the actual native people) would be considered the vernacular?
    Thanked by 2CharlesW LauraKaz
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,955
    I am reaching the age where "active participation" means I got out of bed, clothed myself, and showed up.

    Polyphony, while nice to hear, was never for anything other than choir performance. Simple chants the congregation could/can easily sing.

    What amazes me is the number of folks who think Catholic music was similar to grand liturgies at St. Peter's. It was not in most American churches. In fact, the pre-VII music I remember could be pretty bad. We can't "restore" what we never had to begin with. It could be introduced, but would be foreign to most Americans, sad to say. I wouldn't get too wound up in Sacrosanctum Concilium or any other documents related to music. They were widely ignored even at the times they were written.
    Thanked by 2DavidOLGC LauraKaz
  • francis
    Posts: 10,707
    @CharlesW

    baloney... our choir does the best of Victoria, Lassus, Byrd, Palestrina, etc., ...every week for the Missa Cantata... and they don't even have a sight-reader or a section leader that can read music.
    Thanked by 2DavidOLGC tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,955
    "CHOIR" that was the magic word. Most American congregations would struggle with works by those composers. The degree of musical illiteracy is something I have watched degrade in my own lifetime.
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    How does looking for clarification devolve into ascribing a less-than-honorable motive to the inquirer?
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 542
    Sometimes I think on this, in relation to the way the world has changed since the 60s. Because of the internet, American music and media has come to dominate the entire world and English has trounced French, becoming the lingua franca for politics, business, and education. Even on this forum we have members from all over the world; ordinary people reading and writing on specialist topics in English with a facility uncommon 30 years ago. Here in Toronto, we have immigrants, temp workers, and students from all over the world attending Masses in English and enjoying fellowship (also conducted in English) with each other and with longtime Anglo Canadians. And the young international tourists I’ve seen here and abroad all seem to have a working command of English now, no matter where they’re from.

    It seems to me as the terminally-online Gen Zs come of age, there may soon come a time when English is perceived as a good, neutral default language for multicultural events and liturgies, just because everyone will know it. That of course would be very convenient and we could all sing some very fine hymns, but it saddens me because we all lose when people only know or regularly use one language, and it will be harder to argue for Latin as a logical common meeting-place.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW LauraKaz
  • Gamba,

    One small fly in the ointment: Latin is an immortal language, whereas English is in the middle of a fight for its survival, and seems to be losing.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,777
    English is in the middle of a fight for its survival

    This variant of Great Replacement Theory is surely not meant to be taken seriously.

    I'm a bit on edge today though after this morning's announcements of "Spanish and Caucasian Masses".
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Richard,

    I'm only slightly familiar with the Great Replacement Theory, and I'm not (in this case) advancing some cloak-and-dagger, internationalist cabal, crackpot idea.

    Let me try again, so that I can be adequately precise.

    Ecclesiastical and Classical Latin are the native languages of no living being or group of living beings. The words which the Church uses in her doctrinal definitions are clear in their meaning -- in the Latin, whether there is an exact one-to-one correspondance in any modern language or not -- precisely so that what is required to hold doctrinally (and what is not required, but open for debate and discussion, such as whether Mary died before being assumed into heaven) is clear.

    English (be it that spoken in New York City, or Brisbane, Australia or anywhere else, for that matter) is, in fact, a living language, subject to change in vocabulary. Some of the changes which take place are naturally occurring, organic changes, while others are not natural or organic. Words change in their meanings.

    English is fighting for its life because of the pace of the change and the means by which that change is occurring, at least to some degree. Ray Bradbury asserted one means (government control) when he described people who set fires as firemen, not those who extinguish them. Another (more recent) example is the change of the word fireman to the expression fire fighter. Firemen fought fires, but they also rescued kittens from trees. Fire fighters (as their name suggests) fight fires. People from various countries and cultures to the west of the Pacific Ocean used to be called by many speakers of English "Oriental" -- people of the East. Now that term is taken to be a throw-back to colonial times and understandings, whether it is or not. Some of this change has been effected by well-meaning people, some has been effected by growing or shrinking awareness of various things.

    In the Ecclesiastical sphere, which is the focus of this forum, in some circles "altar boys" is acceptable, but in others "altar servers" is required, to allow girls to be altar boys. The Sacrament of Confession (or Penance) is now known (almost as a litmus test) as Reconciliation -- and this change was imposed by people who said that children couldn't understand large words (which contention is verifiable).

    As another example of a language which is fighting for its life, I read a French headline recently, which was using so much English vocabulary as to do violence to the language (I'll find it, if you want) and there are people who are trying to create "inclusive, gender neutral" forms of French.



  • Elmar
    Posts: 503
    A agree - even when an official Latin text isn't clear (which no doubt happens), any commentary on it is timeless because the meaning of Latin doesn't change any more.

    Gender neutral French? Oh dear, even feminist French is complicated... "madame la mairesse" is (used to be?) the wife of the mayor, a female mayor being "madame le maire".
    Even in German, where attaching "-in" to any masculinum related to persons makes it a femininum, "Sekretär" is a high management position while "Secretärin" = office assistant (guess why...).
    The first female speaker of the West-German parliament in the 80s wanted to be called "Frau Präsident" rather than "Frau Präsidentin" because she had the 'real job', not some downgraded version 'appropriate' for a woman... but this has changed by now. 'Politically correct' made-up expressions have turned into insults in no more than thirty years.
    (Priesterinnenweihe anyone?)

    Now try to apply this kind of considerations to a language spoken in dozens of countries plus by billions of people as a second language; and then define a 'global vernacular' for liturgical English...
    You can be glad that there exists a new, single world-wide English missal - the Dutch/Flemish commission is still working on ours. I hear rumors that it might be introduced by Advent 2024...