Pre-Urbanite Hymns
  • I am wondering if anyone knows of a good source for the pre-urbanite hymns. I know after Vatican II, many of them were restored in part, but I've read it was somewhat inconsistent. The 1961 Graduale has the older texts for a few of the hymns, but not very many. I haven't had any luck finding them on Gregobase, but I guess since the melody is the same, I can put in the older text myself if I have it, it will just be more work.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,183
    Didn't the 1934 Antiphonale Monasticum preserve a lot of the pre-Urbanite hymns?
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,411
    I understand this : http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/PopeUrbanVIII.html to imply that the office hymns shown on Michael Martin's website are the pre-Urbanite texts. A sample here :- http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/TuTrinitas.html
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,735
    The Antiphonale 1912 has a section in the back with the pre Urban text. The Dominican and Monastic books should also. Hymns of the Dominican Missal and Breviary, Aquinas Byrnes, and the Antiphonal linked above.

    N.B. You may find differences in the earlier texts.
  • Thank you all for your answers. After looking at them, I'm thinking the 1912 Antiphonale is probably my best bet. I don't think the hymns on Michael Martin's website are all pre-Urbanite, as I looked up the Veni Creator as an example, and it didn't seem to have any traces of the pre-Urbanite edition.
    If I can't find a hymn in the back of the1912 Antiphonale (such as Ave Maris Stella), should I assume Urban VIII didn't make any changes to it?

    @tomjaw when you say I may find differences in the earlier texts, do you mean differences with the later texts, or differences between the earlier texts themselves?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,735
    What I have noticed is when you look at ancient manuscripts there are sometimes minor differences in the text.
    The Marian Hymn O Gloriosa Domina can also be found with Femina or Virginum instead of Domina.

    The compilers of the Analecta hymnica usually note textual differences. I suspect that you may find differences between the different modern books particularly with the doxology.

    The Ave Maris Stella is one of the few Hymns that was not changed. This book is useful with regard information about the hymns, Connelly, Joseph Hymns of the Roman Liturgy Download link
  • As a follow up question, for someone who knows rubrics better than I do:

    (At a Traditional Latin Mass) Would there be any issues with using exclusively pre-urbanite hymn texts? I am mostly inquiring about uses of hymns outside of the Divine Office (although I would be interested in the rules for the Office too).

    As a specific example, when an indulgence is granted for saying (or singing) the Veni Creator Spiritus on Pentecost, would there be any issue with chanting the pre-urbanite text to gain the indulgence?

    I wonder if the rubrics of 1962 (or pre 1955) frowned on the use of pre-urbanite hymns.
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 253
    The current norms for indulgences do not give the text for the Veni Creator. The appendix to the 1961 Graduale gives two versions of the text, and the 1974 edition gives a version that differs slightly from both. As all three are approved liturgical texts, I see no reason to think it's necessary to use the most current version in order to gain the indulgence. As for the Office, you have to sing the hymn text as it appears in the approved liturgical books of your rite. For a Latin hymn sung as a supplementary chant or motet at Mass, there are no restrictions in the 1962 rubrics about what version may be used.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,735
    As a specific example, when an indulgence is granted for saying (or singing) the Veni Creator Spiritus on Pentecost, would there be any issue with chanting the pre-urbanite text to gain the indulgence?
    We sing the old text while our Missals / booklets have the newer text... I note that the Manual of Prayers only has the new text, but that book is only for England and Wales.
    I wonder if the rubrics of 1962 (or pre 1955) frowned on the use of pre-urbanite hymns.

    No because not all places used the Urban texts, some major churches continued to use the old texts...
    Although the new hymns became the standard text of the Roman Breviary, and remain so to this day in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, they were not everywhere received. The chapters of many major churches retained the use of the older hymns, not least among them that of Saint Peter’s Basilica itself. None of the religious orders which retained the use of their proper breviaries after Trent, such as the Premonstratensians, ever adopted the new text, nor did any of the monastic breviaries.
    Quote from NLM here,

    Outside the Office we can use any Hymn we like, and any text from a liturgical book. The Graduale is clear that we can use the pre Urban text for the Vexilla Regis and Crux Fidelis in Holy week. Of course only those that are bound to the Office need to use the modern approved books. Any layman could sing the Sarum Office for instance, or the pre Pius X Office.