music history textbook claims x, which needs more precision. Help please.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    "[In the late 1600's in Italy, concertos] could substitute for elements of the Mass"

    Can anyone post here, or point me in the direction of helpful resources elsewhere, some understanding of this which is both historically accurate and fair to the meaning of the text?

    How , for example, could instrumental pieces substitute for, that is, stand in the place of, elements of the Mass?
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 623
    Is this not simply referring to Italian/French alternatim practice in imprecise terms?
    Thanked by 2Chris Garton-Zavesky tomjaw
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 285
    It seems to be referring to the sonata da chiesa, not alternatim. It was an abuse not only tolerated but positively promoted in some places.
    Thanked by 3trentonjconn Chris Garton-Zavesky tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    TrentonJConn,

    The alternatim to which you refer I've heard described inadequately elsewhere. Did the choir alternate with the organ, so that only half the text was sung?

    Patrick,

    Thank you for the source, which I shall consult as soon as I have the mental space to do so, and the physical space, too.

    Would you call the description of "substituting" fair, or not?
    Thanked by 1FSSPmusic
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 623
    Did the choir alternate with the organ, so that only half the text was sung?


    Yes, I believe this was standard practice in many places. I think Patrick is probably correct in his assertion that your excerpt is referring to the church sonata as opposed to alternatim though.
    Thanked by 2FSSPmusic tomjaw
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 285
    Yes, it's instrumental music substituted for some part of Sung Mass, usually the gradual and alleluia. I think only singing half the text, probably with serpent accompaniment, is likely the historical alternatim practice and that reciting the rest of the text recto tono was later required by the liturgical regulations.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Chris Garton-Zavesky
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Abuse or not, what was the justification for doing it? I have in my head an argument that looks something like this:

    When regulations require that in Advent and Lent the organ may be used exclusively for the purpose of accompanying chant singing, this implies that it has its own voice, a good thing, at other times of the year. One example of it speaking on its own is this alternatim? The text isn't sung by human voices but by the voice of the organ?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 285
    I have in my head that it's simply how Prince-Archbishop Colloredo of Salzburg wanted it done in his cathedral ;) Alternatim generally applies to parts of the Ordinary; the church sonata, to the Proper.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Once the 1570 Missal rubrics had ordained that the priest should say everything soto voce and the schola or choir was merely providing a pretty duplicate, why should the chant not be replaced by other decorative sounds? The presence of such practices elsewhere even earlier just shows that the corruption of the liturgy was not confined to the papal court.
    Thanked by 2FSSPmusic LauraKaz
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    why should the chant not be replaced by other decorative sounds?


    Gregorian chant is proper to the Roman Rite?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    The organ was considered a consecrated voice set aside for liturgy. It's voice was as valid as any other. Praise ye the lord with organ, etc.
    Thanked by 1MarkS
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    People regarded the organ as capable of Gregorian chant. I understand this is so commonplace as to be largely undocumented, however it can be demonstrated from the exceptional case of the Mass of the Octave of St Denys at the Abbaye Royale. This Mass was performed in Greek, with the Ordinary translated into Greek set to the Gregorian melodies. As it was exceptional it was fully written out. I do not have access at the moment but IIRC I have previously posted pages showing the choir and organ "chanting" alternatim. Once the idea that the organ can sing words has been accepted, I fear the floodgates are open.
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