Lord have mercy upon us
  • Joseph Michael
    Posts: 254
    There are some beautiful English settings of the Kyrie that use the Book of Common Prayer language--"Lord have mercy upon us." Sometimes, our shorter text of "Lord have mercy" work. An example would be the adaptation of the Kyrie from Willan's Missa Sancta Maria Magdalena. In some other settings, the three-word-Kyrie doesn't adapt. Is it permissible to use the "upon us" language for musical reasons? The wisdom of the great minds on this Forum is appreciated!
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    I would suggest it narrows the meaning* of the ancient Missal text and therefore should not be used for the Kyrie, but could be used as an anthem in another suitable place of the liturgy.

    * While "Lord have mercy" can include the idea of "have mercy upon us", it's not restricted to that. It can also be a simple and humble acknowledgement of the sovereignty of God, as well as an exclamation of awe, praise or thanksgiving, et cet.
    Thanked by 4a_f_hawkins Joseph Michael GregoryWeber LauraKaz
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    Nobody is allowed to change the authorized texts of the Mass on his own authority. Appending "upon us" to "Lord, have mercy" would be an unauthorized change.

    Years ago the USCCB clarified that nobody may add unauthorized tropes to the "Lamb of God" litany, as used to be fashionable (e.g., "Bread of Life, you take away the sins of the world..."). Consistent with that prohibition, it would seem that the "Lord, have mercy" may not be altered either.

    The USCCB makes some exceptions in approving Mass settings that, for musical reasons, repeat short phrases or words in the Mass ordinary. There are examples of that in musical settings of the Glory to God, for instance: "Glory, glory to God in the highest." But that's not a case of adding unauthorized words to the liturgical text; it's doubling a portion of the authorized text. Even that, I would say, is inadvisable.
    Thanked by 4Joseph Michael GregoryWeber LauraKaz Jehan_Boutte
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Mark,

    How seriously should this prohibition be taken? I grant, happily, that the prohibition exists and that it is, in part, quoting from various Vatican documents.

    Did the existence of this prohibition actually prevent the creation or use (widespread or otherwise) of such offensive texts?
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    Well, we certainly can’t take the “other people ignored the rule, so I’m safe to ignore the rule too” approach… that’s how we ended up in this mess to begin with.
    Thanked by 2Chris Garton-Zavesky LauraKaz
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Serviam,

    Indeed, but something must be done because (to use an analogy) the only people who are killed are the law abiding citizens who don't have their guns.
  • ChantWorks
    Posts: 9
    Since "have mercy" has the same number of syllables as "upon us", you could just repeat the "have mercy" in place of "upon us" (assuming no strange syllabic stresses or other artistic problems). But I agree with the sentiment above, that it is better to have the music serve the text than to have the text serve the music.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Count the syllables in each - see the connexion?

    Ky-ri-e e-le-i-son.
    Lord have mer-cy up-on us.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    Count the syllables in each:

    Ky-rie_e-lei-son
    Lord have mer-cy

    It works either way!
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Yes, but the 7-syllable BCP "Lord have mercy upon us" seems have been set to match the 7-syllable "Kyrie eleison" for musical purposes.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    the 7-syllable BCP "Lord have mercy upon us" seems have been set to match the 7-syllable "Kyrie eleison" for musical purposes.


    I have heard that explanation before, but is there any evidence, prior to the 19th century, of Anglicans adapting pre-Reformation music to the English text of the liturgy? Merbecke, who produced the music for the first BCP, seems to have just come up with his own syllabic chants, so why would there have been a concern for keeping the same number of syllables.

    I'm not saying this explanation is wrong, but what is the actual evidence for it?
  • Joseph Michael
    Posts: 254
    Yes, the Greek does work for some LHMUU settings but not all.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    If his is true why doesn't it work for Christe eleison, which has six syllables no matter what, where Christ have mercy upon us has seven.
  • Steepleman
    Posts: 2
    FCB, Merbecke’s settings are based on the plainsong. The ordinary one is mostly based on the Requiem ordinary, while the burial ordinary is based on the ferial ordinary. This doesn't include the Gloria, which seems to be a novel melody, or at least not found in the Sarum books.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen tomjaw a_f_hawkins
  • Jehan_Boutte
    Posts: 264
    The problem is the same in France. We have some modern Kyriale that have "Seigneur, prends pitié de nous" (whereas the official translation is "Seigneur, prends pitié").

    Either way, I don't think this translation should be used at all, except in the Ordinariates (after all, this is the traditional Anglican translation of the Kyrie).
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
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