examples of same setting, different texts?
  • Geremia
    Posts: 219
    Besides the example below, are there other instances in chant where the same setting is used for different texts?

    Why is the nuptial Mass's gradual, Uxor tua

    the same setting as a Requiem's, Requiem
    Is this a coincidence or intentional?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,869
  • It's the same melody, I think, by design, but not the design you think. We're not comparing weddings and funerals. If you look at the Easter Vigil, three tracts in a row (or 4?) have the same melody.
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 419
    There’s a joke in here somewhere…
    Thanked by 2tomjaw ServiamScores
  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 241
    the church in her infinite wisdom knows and wishes to share with us that marriage is the beginning of the end

  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,001
    If you sing a lot of chant, both for the Mass and Office, you'll notice the highly formulaic structure of many of them. Most Mode II Graduals have the same melody; there are families of Alleluias, particularly those in Modes II, IV, and VIII, which are extensive (chants in these families are so common that they were included in the second edition of The Parish Book of Chant; there is a large family of Mode V Graduals; almost all Mode VIII Tracts have the same melody, verbatim; there is also a huge family of Office Antiphons in Mode IV* (which I believe Solesmes is now calling Mode II*) that all share the same melody.

    Going through the 1974 Graduale Romanum, Mode II Graduals of the "Uxor tua" family (with the final on A) are found on the following pages (NB, some show slightly more variety, particularly with incipits, e.g. "Haec dies"):

    Pp. 25, 27, 30, 33, 38, 42, 72, 155, 196, 201, 203, 206, 209, 212, 347, 409, 427, 428, 455, 510, 520, 646, 670.
  • Geremia
    Posts: 219
    the church in her infinite wisdom knows and wishes to share with us that marriage is the beginning of the end
    You laugh, but I was seriously thinking exactly that. Marriage is the continuation of the cycle of life and death.

    If you sing a lot of chant, both for the Mass and Office, you'll notice the highly formulaic structure of many of them.

    There seem to be distinctly Marian motifs, so aren't there "deathly" motifs, too? I tagged my question "Semiology"; does semiology study how certain motifs pertain to certain themes?
    Thanked by 1PaxTecum
  • davido
    Posts: 604
    All makes sense once you know that “Uxor tua” translates as “till death do us part”
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,001
    I don't know if semiology deals with specific rhetorical devices as such, in my experience, semiology deals instead with the study of the ancient neumes in order to decipher their correct performance practice, and with melodic restoration; i.e. whether a note should be long or short, or whether it should be a B or a C, etc.

    I wouldn't necessarily attribute too many extra musical "meanings" to particular formulae in responsorial chants or psalmody, whether prolix or simple. If certain stock melismata in these two Mode II Graduals are associated with a particular idea in these two chants, then they have to be applicable in all other instances, including when they set the words "et" or "sed" or whatever. You would also have to approach the Tracts, the Alleluias, the Short Responsories of the Office, and the Responsorial Psalms of the Simplex, and possibly even the Psalm-tones, in the same way, since they are all more or less ornate formulae for the recitation of psalmody.
    Thanked by 2Geremia rich_enough
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,292
    Another example of two texts with the same music,
    Homo quidam
    Virgo parens Christi

    Also have you ever wondered why only one part of the 'modern' "de Angelis" Mass VIII sounds heavenly...
    Sanctus VIII
    O quam suavis est
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,524
    To Salieri's point, I think that Christus factus est is one of the few that actually varies among mode V graduals, though the clef change at the verse is still typical. The Sundays after Pentecost and even many of the feasts of that season, are a joy, because the beginning and end is repetitive. The verses are more challenging, but I don't sing those!

    Chris, it's four or five, depending on whether you do the blessing of the font or not; the Alleluia intervenes, but in any case, all of the mode VIII tracts share melodic features just like most mode VIII tracts do, again as Salieri saays. Likewise, the mode II tracts, of which there are far fewer, are similar, but I think that it's somewhat less obvious.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 302
    Rather than connecting marriage to death, why not connect death (in Christ) to (the) marriage (feast of the Lamb)?
    Thanked by 3Salieri Geremia Gamba
  • Deacon Fritz,

    The humorous value of your example is lower octane than marriage and death.
  • CGM
    Posts: 557
    Why are chants with similar melodies considered to be exmaples?
    Does sharing a melody expel them from the Acer genus?
    Thanked by 2WGS PaxTecum
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,802
    There’s also the shorter example of Credo IV quoting the opening of the sequence Dies Irae at the phrase “passus et sepultus est”.
  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 241
    Another point on repeated melodies: the melody of the antiphon "pueri hebraeorum" from palm sunday is used all over the place throughout vespers
  • Geremia
    Posts: 219
    @Salieri: Perhaps I mean tropes?
    What's the study of tropes called?
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 912
    Some older melodies have been adapted for more recent feasts, e.g. the offertory and communion of Pentecost adapted for the feast of Corpus Christi. Other examples:
    Dico autem vobis

    Ecce advenit
    Salve sancta parens
    Thanked by 2tomjaw PaxTecum