examples of same setting, different texts?
  • Geremia
    Posts: 237
    Besides the example below, are there other instances in chant where the same setting is used for different texts?



    Why is the nuptial Mass's gradual, Uxor tua
    image

    the same setting as a Requiem's, Requiem
    image
    ?
    Is this a coincidence or intentional?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,019
    Yes.
  • It's the same melody, I think, by design, but not the design you think. We're not comparing weddings and funerals. If you look at the Easter Vigil, three tracts in a row (or 4?) have the same melody.
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 495
    There’s a joke in here somewhere…
    Thanked by 2tomjaw ServiamScores
  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 277
    the church in her infinite wisdom knows and wishes to share with us that marriage is the beginning of the end

    lol
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,146
    If you sing a lot of chant, both for the Mass and Office, you'll notice the highly formulaic structure of many of them. Most Mode II Graduals have the same melody; there are families of Alleluias, particularly those in Modes II, IV, and VIII, which are extensive (chants in these families are so common that they were included in the second edition of The Parish Book of Chant; there is a large family of Mode V Graduals; almost all Mode VIII Tracts have the same melody, verbatim; there is also a huge family of Office Antiphons in Mode IV* (which I believe Solesmes is now calling Mode II*) that all share the same melody.

    Going through the 1974 Graduale Romanum, Mode II Graduals of the "Uxor tua" family (with the final on A) are found on the following pages (NB, some show slightly more variety, particularly with incipits, e.g. "Haec dies"):

    Pp. 25, 27, 30, 33, 38, 42, 72, 155, 196, 201, 203, 206, 209, 212, 347, 409, 427, 428, 455, 510, 520, 646, 670.
  • Geremia
    Posts: 237
    @PaxTecum
    the church in her infinite wisdom knows and wishes to share with us that marriage is the beginning of the end
    You laugh, but I was seriously thinking exactly that. Marriage is the continuation of the cycle of life and death.

    @Salieri
    If you sing a lot of chant, both for the Mass and Office, you'll notice the highly formulaic structure of many of them.
    Yes.

    There seem to be distinctly Marian motifs, so aren't there "deathly" motifs, too? I tagged my question "Semiology"; does semiology study how certain motifs pertain to certain themes?
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  • davido
    Posts: 695
    All makes sense once you know that “Uxor tua” translates as “till death do us part”
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,146
    I don't know if semiology deals with specific rhetorical devices as such, in my experience, semiology deals instead with the study of the ancient neumes in order to decipher their correct performance practice, and with melodic restoration; i.e. whether a note should be long or short, or whether it should be a B or a C, etc.

    I wouldn't necessarily attribute too many extra musical "meanings" to particular formulae in responsorial chants or psalmody, whether prolix or simple. If certain stock melismata in these two Mode II Graduals are associated with a particular idea in these two chants, then they have to be applicable in all other instances, including when they set the words "et" or "sed" or whatever. You would also have to approach the Tracts, the Alleluias, the Short Responsories of the Office, and the Responsorial Psalms of the Simplex, and possibly even the Psalm-tones, in the same way, since they are all more or less ornate formulae for the recitation of psalmody.
    Thanked by 2Geremia rich_enough
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,453
    Another example of two texts with the same music,
    Homo quidam
    and
    Virgo parens Christi

    Also have you ever wondered why only one part of the 'modern' "de Angelis" Mass VIII sounds heavenly...
    Sanctus VIII
    and
    O quam suavis est
    Thanked by 1Coemgen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,773
    To Salieri's point, I think that Christus factus est is one of the few that actually varies among mode V graduals, though the clef change at the verse is still typical. The Sundays after Pentecost and even many of the feasts of that season, are a joy, because the beginning and end is repetitive. The verses are more challenging, but I don't sing those!

    Chris, it's four or five, depending on whether you do the blessing of the font or not; the Alleluia intervenes, but in any case, all of the mode VIII tracts share melodic features just like most mode VIII tracts do, again as Salieri saays. Likewise, the mode II tracts, of which there are far fewer, are similar, but I think that it's somewhat less obvious.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 314
    Rather than connecting marriage to death, why not connect death (in Christ) to (the) marriage (feast of the Lamb)?
  • Deacon Fritz,

    The humorous value of your example is lower octane than marriage and death.
  • CGM
    Posts: 589
    Why are chants with similar melodies considered to be exmaples?
    Does sharing a melody expel them from the Acer genus?
    Thanked by 2WGS PaxTecum
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,868
    There’s also the shorter example of Credo IV quoting the opening of the sequence Dies Irae at the phrase “passus et sepultus est”.
  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 277
    Another point on repeated melodies: the melody of the antiphon "pueri hebraeorum" from palm sunday is used all over the place throughout vespers
  • Geremia
    Posts: 237
    @Salieri: Perhaps I mean tropes?
    What's the study of tropes called?
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 948
    Some older melodies have been adapted for more recent feasts, e.g. the offertory and communion of Pentecost adapted for the feast of Corpus Christi. Other examples:
    Dico autem vobis
    and
    Gloriosa

    Ecce advenit
    and
    Salve sancta parens
    Thanked by 2tomjaw PaxTecum
  • Coemgen
    Posts: 48
    That A-mode Gradual melody type on Uxor Tua has been called Justus ut palma by scholars in the past, though they all acknowledge it's a weak name, because that particular Gradual is not found in the Roman cursus.

    I've argued that the type ought to be renamed Haec Dies, which together with Tecum Principium is likely the oldest Gradual that the Carolingians wrote down, because its six verses contain a lot of motivic variance for the type (pre-standard material, if you will) that isn't found in the other Graduals that Salieri listed above.

    If you compare the Carolingian (Gregorian) and Late Roman (Old Roman) recensions of the Gradual repertory, you'll see that some more 'interesting' melodies of other modes in one recension are occasionally swapped out for the Haec Dies type in the other. And later (non-Roman) compositions of Graduals, if they're not copied from other Graduals, are often taken from this type as well.

    It all suggests the type was pretty common stock, to the point of being a fallback melody for Gradual responsories when you didn't have anything else to sing for the psalm verse. That or the medievals just loved the sound of it. Can't blame 'em.
    Thanked by 1Geremia
  • Coemgen
    Posts: 48
    @Geremia I doubt prosulatory troping per se has anything to do with the 'theming' of motives that you're noticing. I think it's more to do with one song imitating another, either intentionally or not.

    In the older medieval Gregorian repertory, overall, any thematic parallels exemplified by the motive or formula choice are likely going to be an accident in the earlier material — cantors know song X by heart, some conditional cue in improvising song Y led them to sing material from song X, and that got recorded on the page — and a nod in later material — composer imitates a part of Dies Irae so that his choice of motive will remind some congregants of that song, or at least invoke the same sensations.

    I recall reading that in the Tract Deus Deus meus a couple of formulas were found several times only on certain words like "lion and dragon", the same motives being found on the same words for the same or similar Psalm verses in Responsories. The author's speculation was that the cantor was not just accidentally cuing due to similar conditions, but even perhaps letting it come forth from his memory intentionally in order to reinforce his memory of the formula as a sort of oral tradition.

    You can see how that sort of thing can grow and evolve into a tradition of its own right, where thematic association of formulas becomes a thing, but it's too inconsistent and not fully developed enough in Gregorian chant to indicate that it had become a thing before the Late Roman period of chant had passed.
    Thanked by 1Geremia
  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 277
    I am resurrecting this thread to share that a priest commented on this in his sermon at a wedding I recently attended. He noted that it may be a symbol of the "death to oneself" required in becoming "no longer two but one flesh." I thought this was interesting and that I should share it.
    Thanked by 2Geremia francis
  • Geremia
    Posts: 237
    @Coemgen: Fascinating the analysis in my previous post found Tecum principium and Hæc dies, which you mentioned in your post above.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,149
    Rather than connecting marriage to death, why not connect death (in Christ) to (the) marriage (feast of the Lamb)?
    ...because we who are married like 'the beginning of the end'.
  • Geremia
    Posts: 237
    introducing IsoGrego
    Helping you find the top n Gregorian chants most similar to a given one, sorted by cosine TF-IDF similarity of the GABC files.
  • @Geremia: isoGrego = excellent work.
    ______________________
    In the 19th century, the monks of Solesmes went through the monasteries and various libraries in France and Europe, taking photos of most of the manuscripts they could find.
    They restored the melody "Grad. Justus ut palma" by comparing 200+ manuscripts. They published their work in the Paléographie Musicale No II and III.
    https://www.archive.org/details/palographiemus1891gaja
    https://www.archive.org/details/palographiemus1892gaja
    And yes, it is written in French.
    ___________________________________
    Don Johner details the similar melody "Grad. Angelis suis" (1st Sunday of Lent).
    http://www.gregorianbooks.com/p.php?p=GB834,JO120|0|394|754|638,JO121|0|106|742|940,JO122|0|98|738|938,JO123|0|108|744|938
    Thanked by 1tomjaw