'Roman Missal Chants' vs. Missa XVIII
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,514
    I'm at a loss for what an official title might be for the Roman Missal Ordinary setting consisting of Kyrie XVI-A, Gloria XV, Credo I, Sanctus & Agnus XVIII with Mysterium fidei; and I welcome suggestions on the CPDL Talk: page.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 824
    Isn't that the Jubilate Deo collection from Pope Paul VI?
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 438
    I think the official title is Missa unicus cantus utiles, quos in hoc horribili libro ex OCP invenire possum.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,018
    No, not the original Jubilate Deo booklet. That had Gloria VIII & Credo III.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,018
    Richard Mix: your link to a CPDL talk page does not work.

    Question :- are these settings in the Missale Romanum editio typica (2002/2008) ?
    ¿ or are they an ICEL choice to match their settings of the English ?
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,569
    So far, it appears to be based on the editio typica, not the vernacular edition.

    I would simply include Missal edition as a parenthetical in the title.
    Thanked by 1RedPop4
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,040
    It's Ordinarium I from the Kyriale Simplex, as found in the Graduale Simplex, 1975, pp. 21-23.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,040
    I am going on record as saying that I feel that including these chants in the Missal itself was a very BAD idea, having run into several 'conservative', orthodox, liturgically conscientious young priests who think that 1) it is THE (as in ONLY) Gregorian chant ordinary; 2) that its use is compulsory; 3) that it is the priest's job to cantor the Kyrie at sung masses, not the schola cantorum. All of this is because they want to "say the black and do the red", and believe that because these things are in the Missal (which is the priests' book) it is their job to sing them. What this means, practically, is that if any of these priests (who have filled in, and pre-empted my cantoring) become pastor here, my congregation will go from singing Kyries VIII, X, XI, XVI, XVII-B, XVII-C & XVIII-B from the Romanum, and Kyries II-ii & V-ii from the Simplex throughout the year based on the day and season, to only singing XVI every day--which is a step backward.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,055
    On the other hand perhaps more priests would then require (or sing) the Missal chants, on black-red grounds or otherwise, who previously allowed or wanted something ... bouncier. I've certainly heard Masses in the Novus rite which would have been very much improved by the priest intoning the Missal chants.

    But I agree that they’re presented as if they were the only choice. It really looks like that when you compare the 3d typical edition (2002) of the Novus missal to, say, the priest’s chant in a Roman missal. Such as it’s 3d typical edition (1634) for example. Where truly only the priest’s chanting is included and any variation (eg according to the rank of the feast) is specified in the rubric.

    So in the case of the recent Novus missal chant -- there's more included than in any previous edition either of the Novus Rite or of the Roman Rite -- I'll say a good idea badly implemented.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,040
    If they were included at all (which I don't think was necessary), they should have been placed in an appendix. It is especially badly implemented, currently, because these ordinary settings are typeset exactly the same as the Dialogues, Prefaces, etc., and presented within the body of the Ordo Missae, and it certainly does give the impression that its the priests' job to intone these and lead them rather than the schola's. In which case, a lot of parishes would save a lot of money by firing the musicians, and just having the priest cantor everything and recite the Entrance and Communion Antiphons: Low Mass with sung Ordianry.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,018
    Salieri - That shows how poor seminary liturgical teaching remains. But of course if you have a schola rather than a single cantor, these chants should not be the first choice.
    It would cost more in red ink, but I would prefer the Missal, whenever there is an option, to say, for example Introit, from GR or GS or : .

    Alas, most people never see beyond the first printed option, of a dozen readers at our church only one ever chooses an alternative Gospel acclamation.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,601
    In fact, these clerics should know better: if anything, it's the deacon's job, not the priest celebrant's…
    Thanked by 2Salieri tomjaw
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,040
    it's the deacon's job, not the priest celebrant's

    Yes, if you have a deacon; we don't. Which doesn't bother me, considering the abominable "training" they get in my diocese.

    It does annoy me that the "Kyrie" almost never gets sung in most parishes anyway, because the celebrant has to let the deacon do the third form of the penitential act "to give him something to do"; or if the other forms are used, doesn't let the schola/choir sing the "Kyrie" so that the deacon can do it, again, "to give him something to do". The deacon has something to do: read (i.e. chant) the Gospel, and give the dismissal, and, if needed, assist in the distribution of Communion, those are his jobs.

    What all of this really comes down to is the rampant clericalism of the Novus Ordo.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,569
    Deacons are clerics too.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,040
    Yes, and they are guilty of clericalism.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,514
    (The discussion page link above should work now.)

    Caro Salieri, does the GS1975 'Missa simplex I' have all 6 movements?
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,040
    Ordinarium I contains Kyrie XVI, Gloria XV, Sanctus XVIII, & Agnus XVIII.

    The Mysterium fidei is from the Ordo Missae in Cantu. The Ordo Missae in Cantu includes the tones for the Sign of the Cross, the Greetings, the Dialogues, etc., and is taken from the Ordo Cantus Missae of 1970, it is identical in the Simplex, Romanum and in the Missale.

    The Simplex follows the Romanum and groups the Credo settings after the Ordinary suites: In either case the ICEL creed is Credo I; the alternate ICEL chant, in Appendix I of the Roman Missal, is Credo III (in both the Simplex & Romanum).

    As an aside: the four Credo settings in the Graduale Simplex are:
    Credo I: same chant as in the Graduale Romanum
    Credo II: ibid.
    Credo III: ibid.
    Credo IV: more ambrosiano
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,018
    The Kyriale Simplex is the Church's official hymn book for small churches, and as a good hymn book should it numbers all its contents. Why did they not extend this to the whole Gradual?
    34. Kyrie XVI
    35. Gloria XV
    60. Credo I
    18. Mysterium fidei .. Mortem tuam ...
    36. Sanctus XVIII
    37. Agnus XVIII

    18 from first section Cantus in Ordine Missae
    34-37 from Kyriale Simplex - Ordinarium I
    60 from Kyriale Simplex - Credo I
    As with GR, it notes that you can mix chants from different sets.
    I note that they have 'chosen' option 1 !



    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 305
    This is the second time in about a week that someone has seized the opportunity to slag off deacons as a group, perhaps never bothering to think that there might be deacons who read this forum, or maybe just not caring that you’re making insulting generalizations about an entire sacred order in the church. Constructive criticism is fine, but I guess I don’t consider “we’re better off without them” to be constructive criticism.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,601
    unless I've missed something, the only criticism is of deacons in one member's experience in his diocese, and said member also complained about priests who don't respect his work and the parochial customs when they are the visitors (there are some things which one may impose or dispense with when visiting: changing the music like this isn't one of them). If it's problematic that "priests give deacons something to do," then I can see why that'd be so, but then again, that goes back to the problems of proper formation in the seminary and prior to ordination for anyone ordained to the diaconate (and thus the priesthood).
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,018
    Deacons have plenty to "do" at Mass, they have custody of the Gospel Book, and of the sacred vessels, they are responsible for directing the congregation. And when not otherwise occupied they assist the celebrant, so that the celebrant can concentrate on his unique role - the offering of prayer.
    GIRM 171 ... a) assists the Priest and walks at his side;
    b) ministers at the altar, both as regards the chalice and the book;
    c) proclaims the Gospel and may, at the direction of the Priest Celebrant, give the Homily (cf. no. 66);
    d) guides the faithful people by giving appropriate instructions, and announces the intentions of the Universal Prayer;
    e) assists the Priest Celebrant in distributing Communion, and purifies and arranges the sacred vessels; ...
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,040
    Just to clarify: I have nothing against deacons, permanent or transitional, as such, and have known some excellent ones. I do, however, have very little good to say about the abysmal training, really, lack thereof, which they get in my diocese. Deacons are first and foremost liturgical ministers, but here they're trained in everything but liturgy: accounting, parish management, RCIA, social work, but not liturgy, and this shows in how they carry out their functions in the sanctuary.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw ServiamScores
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,673
    The Kyriale Simplex is the Church's official hymn book for small churches,


    Sorry, but how is the GS a hymn book?

    Words have meanings.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 305
    Deacons are first and foremost liturgical ministers


    I'll stop derailing this discussion after this, but I have to note that this is not true. Deacons are ordained to the ministries of Liturgy, Word, and Charity, without any one having precedence over the other. I can appreciate that you most often encounter them in terms of their exercise of liturgical ministry, and that some deacons could be better trained in that ministry, but that is really not the only things deacons do.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,018
    hymn: a religious song or poem of praise to God or a god.
    hymn book: a book containing hymns

    GS contains almost exclusively items plucked from the collection of songs/poems of praise to God & of laments etc. called the Book of Psalms. There are also a few songs taken from elsewhere in Scripture. And some hymns composed for Christian worship, such as the Gloria.
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • Deacon Fritz,

    I recognize that you and I don't agree on much, but I, for one, value the "derailing" of this conversation you've engaged in. Better knowledge of the deaconate in its original form and in its restoration is needed.
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 305
    Chris, I imagine that if we sat down over beers or single malts we would discover that we agree on quite a lot. The interwebs tend to amplify differences and muffle commonalities.
  • I have a friend who was invited to pursue the permanent diaconate precisely because he is a married man. Some persons see the true purpose of the permanent diaconate to pave the road to a married priesthood, and women priests and all sorts of other evils. Perhaps you, Deacon Fritz, would start a new thread about the true nature of the deaconate?

    I would welcome the chance to sit down (with you and a fair number around here) and enjoy conviviality rather than a common screen.

    {Swerving back to the topic of the OP]

    I know it's not called this in any official books, but could it be called the Exodus Chants or Chant in Exile or Crumbs we'll allow you or How to misrepresent the whole of the Corpus in 6 easy chants ?