Distinct (valid) translations
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    My Ordo notes, in French, that "l'orgue est permis seulement pour accompagner le chant"

    Its this word "chant" which I want explored.

    It could mean what the English "chant" means, and include Propers and Ordinaries.
    On the other hand, it could mean, more expansively, "that which is sung".

    On the one hand, the organ has its own voice, so being allowed only to accompany the Propers and the Ordinaries is, already a reduction. On the other hand, if it means "anything which is sung", this amounts to permission to accompany polyphonic stuff, too, and devotional hymns at Offertory (where that is a practice), and so I'm inclined to think to think that it must mean the first... but is that, by itself, adequate to render a translation. An English rendering of the relevant text in rubrics and general instructions seems to say that it is permitted only if absolutely needed to accompany singing... and there's that word again.

  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    In French "chant" usually translates as either "song" or "voice", what in English is called simply "chant" is usually rendered in French as "chant gregorien", so in this context it seems to mean "to accompany the singing", which would include a strict colla parte doubling of the vocal parts in polyphony, but not an independent organ part. So if the choir needs some support on the Handl/Victoria "Ave Maria" on Advent IV, that's OK. This rubric comes from Musicam Sacram, which being Roman Law should be interpreted as such: That which isn't forbidden is permitted.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Andrew_Malton
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Salieri,

    If I were reading "le chant" anywhere other than an Ordo, I would completely agree with you. The "not an independent organ part" is certainly on the mark.

  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,889
    I would also read this in the broad sense of "the organ is permitted only for the accompaniment of the singing". I do believe if the intention was plainchant specifically that the broad term for singing (which is evidently derived etymologically from "chanting") would not have been used. I do question the rubric, however, unless it is specifically referring to the strictures of Advent & Lent.

    EDIT: it looks like you're referring to GIRM 313, which the missal approved for use in the USA also translates as "only in order to support the singing". [specifically for Lent; moderated/restrained usage of the organ is permitted in Advent]
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    unless it is specifically referring to the strictures of Advent & Lent.


    It is.

    you're referring to GIRM 313, which the missal approved for use in the USA


    I'm native to EF, and the Ordo I'm using is, too.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    EDIT: it looks like you're referring to GIRM 313, which the missal approved for use in the USA also translates as "only in order to support the singing". [specifically for Lent; moderated/restrained usage of the organ is permitted in Advent]

    Is this an TLM (FSSP, ICKSP, SSPX, etc.) Ordo or Novus Ordo Ordo? If it's TLM---which is what I was assuming it was---then the regulation regarding the Organ are identical in Advent & Lent (i.e. N.O. GIRM doesn't apply in any country).
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,187
    In French the word chant means “singing” and “song”. Sacred monophony (especially but not exclusively Gregorian) is called plain-chant.

    In English [cf. OED "chant", 2a] the divergence of “chant” to connote sacred or monophonic (or monotonous!) singing is very recent, no earlier than about 1750. Also “plain chant” is not attested before about 1700. Before that it was called “plain song”, directly translating cantus planus.

    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Chris Garton-Zavesky Liam
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Is this an TLM (FSSP, ICKSP, SSPX, etc.) Ordo or Novus Ordo Ordo?


    Salieri,

    I guess I should say I'm a naturalized citizen of the EF, not native-born, but yes, it's a TLM Ordo.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    I second what Salieri and Andrew_Malton said above. Interpreting "chant" to including all manner of legitimate church singing, whether Latin or vernacular, Ordinary, Proper, or supplementary, is really the only sensible interpretation. I recommend reviewing the previous thread here regarding Requiem Masses, which involve the same principles:
    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/17840/musical-selections-for-tlm-requiem-mass/
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,187
    That said, the use of “chant” to translate “cantus” in the 2011 English GIRM is an error. And mischievous.

    (Wow has it really been exactly 10 years? So much water...)
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    It was an instance of the false friend translation problem.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    To call it that would be to treat it as a mistake, which would probably be a mistake.
    Thanked by 2Andrew_Malton ServiamScores
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