LoTH Vespers
  • So I normally pray DA or pre-DA Office, but I have to do a LotH Vespers this season for our parish. Just to be absolutely sure, there is no wiggle room at all to have the hymn in its traditional place, correct? The hour must begin with the hymn? Just still seems so odd to me.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Clemens,

    The general principle "Do things exactly as indicated; say them exactly as printed" ought to apply here if for no other reason than that Pope Francis has issued Traditionis Custodes, strongly insisting that there is a unique form of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite. If you (generically) could move things around at will, even to the point of adopting a former practice, there wouldn't be a unique form, but a plurality of forms.
  • Hence, the hermeneutic of rupture, I'd say. Of course, plurality of forms has always existed in the Divine Office. But who am I to argue.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Just say the black en do the red. You may have your opinions and even have good arguments for them, but rubrics are there to be followed.

    So, no, there is no wiggle room to transfer the hymn in Liturgia horarum to a place other than indicated by the rubrics.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,411
    They do tell us their thinking for this placement : GILH 42 - "...(the hymn) makes an easy and pleasant opening to the prayer ...". And there is permission to substitute any other 'suitable' hymn (or poem) from those provided.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,735
    We are fortunate that our N.O. Parish is happy to have DA Vespers and Compline.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • Bri
    Posts: 107
    Related to the idea of "say the black and do the red":

    Our cathedral celebrated Advent Veapers this evening. They ended with a Marian antiphon. Is this permitted?

    Or should the Marian antiphon only be sung at the end of Compline?

    (Our cathedral does not have a public celebration of Compline.)

    Thanks!
  • Bri,

    The Marian antiphon follows Compline.
  • That’s what I thought, but I hoped someone knew of an obscure ruling, etc. allowing it. Ah well. At the beginning then.
  • Clemens,

    It's not an obscure ruling, although it's intentionally ambiguous: When the Ordo of Paul VI came into existence, it was meant to be flexible, not rigid -- see Pope Francis' constant reminders about this.
  • GerardH
    Posts: 429
    @Bri There's nothing to prohibit the Marian antiphon after Vespers. No one would argue with singing a Salve Regina at the end of Mass, so neither should there be a problem with singing it after Vespers. It is after the dismissal, so it is no longer within the liturgy

    As Chris pointed out, it is prescribed after Compline. I wonder if this is the only time any rubrics are given for what follows immediately after a dismissal...
    Thanked by 1Bri
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,735
    In England it is normal to sing the Marian Anthem after Divine Office Vespers, supposedly this is permitted but have not seen the permission.
    Thanked by 1Bri
  • if Vespers is over, you can do whatever you want. Singing a Marian antiphon is an apt option. Technically, it isn't part of Vespers, just like a recessional hymn is no part of Mass.

    When the Ordo of Paul VI came into existence, it was meant to be flexible, not rigid -- see Pope Francis' constant reminders about this.

    It's true that the reformed liturgy provides for making pastoral choices, but these are always governed by rubrics, which are prescriptive of nature. If something isn't given as an option, it's not an option.

    I wonder if this is the only time any rubrics are given for what follows immediately after a dismissal...

    That’s an interesting question. While Compline doesn’t end with a dismissal, but with a blessing, this might indeed be the only rubric that prescribes what comes next, other than the withdrawal of the priest (cf. Order of Mass 145-146).
  • @Bri I dont think its an issue to sing a hymn to Mary after vespers for one's personal devotion to Our Lady. Its only that its required after Compline... where as for Vespers, why does it matter what is done after ward... you could say the rosary if you wanted... vespers has ended so what comes after its end has nothing to do with anything in rubrics. If that makes sense. In our community we sing to Mary after everything!
    Thanked by 1Bri
  • 1. Do the rubrics and the general instruction of the liturgy of the hours have the force of law? (In the earlier modern time, since the beginning of the 17th, it seems that rubrics were understood as laws: but the modern style (descriptive, interpretive, often rather imprecise) is different enough from the older tradition that this question seems to arise.)

    2. If they are laws, whom do they bind? For the Mass and sacraments, clearly they bind the priest celebrant, but if laymen recite the Office are they bound to follow the rubrics with precision in conscience? I doubt it.

    3. Is there a law requiring common prayer in a parish church to be according to a prescribed form? I've certainly been to prayer-based gatherings (viz. in the Novus Ordo rite Catholic church) which were not in the books: for example “reconciliation services” that are common at this time of year.

    I think, therefore, that an occasional (seasonal) evening prayer service could be called "vespers" and still have the hymn after the Psalms, if no one attending minds. (If the service is also meant as the priest’s Breviary obligation, that's another matter, I suppose.)
    Thanked by 1Bri
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,411
    Explicitly permitted in the Ordinariate DW: Daily Office (Commonwealth edn) General Introduction:
    71. Aside from Compline, the Marian Anthemn appointed for the season may be recited together with its Versicle and Response, and the Collect, at the conclusion of any Office.
    For those afflicted by scruples, there was a prayer in the old breviary craving pardon for any errors or omissions committed in violation of the obligation.
    Thanked by 1Bri
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,411
    Andrew_Malton
    re your question 2 - no there is nothing binding on the laity, just encouragement to use the texts. It is in any case difficult to construct rubrics covering everything from a deacon reading the Office on a plane journey, to Solemn Choral Vespers in a Cathedral, great latitude is inevitable. Laity may choose to take on the obligation, for example by joining one of the Third Orders, or by monastic profession.
    Reconciliation services should follow rite 2 of the official Rite of Penance, but that only lays out the shape of the service with suggestions, except that the Lord's Prayer is prescribed, and of course the form of absolution for those who choose to confess.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,411
    Just stumbled across the rubric in LU(1962) p261. At the end of Vespers, if Compline does not follow immediately, then the celebrant says the Pater noster silently and the seasonal marian antiphon (anthemn) follows, with the seasonal prayer (collect).
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Bri