haydn Mass St. Peters, Petecost
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    video here (IE only, so far as I can)

    And Fr. Z lit up a discussion here
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    The music is magnificent and very very beautiful. But I wonder whether this music is intended to be used for the concert performance for the sake of the beauty of the music itself, or to be used in the litrugy. Many master composers used the form of the Mass for their compositions, did they actually compose those music to accompany the actions in the litrugy? Are those performers really united with the Holy Father in that Mass and praying with him? Gregorian chants are truly liturgical, because their main purpose is very clear, and whoever wrote those chants wrote them out of their faith.

    This morning our priest gave a homily about the importance of Eucharist. He heard that some people say that they can pray outside the church, so they don't necessarily feel to go to a church, and just walking in the woods or at the beach looking at the beautful creation that God gave to us and how those inpire them to pray to God. He memtioned that we can pray anywhere, but we can receive Jesus only at the Mass.
    To me his homily seems to be related to listening to this kind of beautiful music.
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 837
    All of Haydn's Masses were composed for use in the liturgy--only!
    Before the 19th century, Masses were not written for concert use.
    The Holy Father has explicitly supported the use of classical, concertated Mass settings in the liturgy.
    The Masses of Haydn and Mozart are among the richest and most important works in our patrimony of Catholic liturgical music.
    Several parishes, especially Saint Agnes in Saint Paul and (increasingly) Assumption Grotto Church in Detroit are dedicated to presenting Masses from this repertory in their (only) appropriate context.

    We need to be very careful in ascribing intentionality to individual composers. Ultimately, the works themselves must meet the criteria of the liturgy--above, beyond, and even in spite of the less-than-perfect intentions of their original creators.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    "All of Haydn's Masses were composed for use in the liturgy--only!
    Before the 19th century, Masses were not written for concert use."

    Thanks, Daniel, it's good to hear that. If those pieces were not written for the concert performances, we should keep it that way. Somehow we seem to hear them at the concert more, and they were almost handed over to the secular use.
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 837
    Exactly!
  • G
    Posts: 1,401
    The Agnus Dei during distribution of Communion certainly is striking, if not jarring, to some modern sensibilities.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 837
    "striking, if not jarring, to some modern sensibilities"

    Which can be a great jumping-off point for exploring how our sensibilities have been formed!
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Some modern sensibilities need to be jarred!
  • John B
    Posts: 16
    My first reaction was similar to that expressed by miacoyne. But then, the camera panned to His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI during the Kyrie - and once again he was teaching us with his actions: he was clearly praying. I agree with all the comments above: we have gotten so wrapped up in the notion that "participation" at Mass means speaking and moving and getting up and down, that we have forgotten that the most important act of participation in the Mass is to PRAY. Obviously, the average church will not have the resources to perform a Haydn Mass, so this is not a musical model for the typical Mass (chant and polyphony, however, are that model). But Pentecost Sunday in St. Peter's need not be typical; I would hope that on the rare occasions we have to experience such a Mass, the people will understand that it is not a concert (any more than listening to a choir since Palestrina, Byrd or Tallis); it is an opportunity to PRAY.
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