Latin Pronunciation
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,189
    Someone firmly proposes that we ought to sing eléison with three syllables, so that the second syllable is a diphthong . However we sing it in the only way I've ever thought right, as four syllables. With exactly the same vowels as, for example, mei or Dei.

    Well so I looked in the Liber Usualis, for example, on a page where I have not looked for many a year, and found my habitual Latin pronunciation, also that of the schola, described exactly. At least so it seemed to me, and good. Of course I know that there is no unique correct way to pronounce Latin and even my great-grandfather certainly pronounced it differently, in the old English way. But we at Mass want to sing using the “usual” modern Church Latin pronunciation.

    So does that include or exclude singing Ky-ri-e e-le-i-son? How about e-lei-son? What do you do, and why?
  • davido
    Posts: 958
    Depends on the setting. If there is a note for “i” then it’s a four syllable word. If no extra note, then it’s a diphthong.
    Thanked by 4madorganist ServiamScores M. Jackson Osborn francis
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,000
    Have a look at some of the restituted chants of the Kyriale, for example by Gregor und Taube (Anton Stingl): they all have the three syllable "e-lei-son" throughout.
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    I've been told in one schola to sing it ky-ri-e e-le-ei-son. So that the e and i are not said as individual sounds but more like an eh followed by an ehy. Has anyone else heard of this?
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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The correct pronunciation is five syllables: Ky-ri-e-ley-son.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,912
    I see it both ways all the time. Completely depends on the composer. I don't believe either is "wrong" in a musical context. I believe it's a diphthong when spoken.

    This reminds me of the time I was accompanying a lutheran choir who sang in latin all of once a year and this woman insisted to the choir that it is "gloria in EGG-SHELL-seees Deo." Got it? EGG. SHELL. (To be fair, not the worst way of pronouncing it, but man was she adamant and the choir just had to go with it.) lol.
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  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    The "eggshell" idea might be a useful way to explain the imploded K, but it's not literally the desired end result. The caricaturing of Latin and apparent necessity to shoehorn every single phoneme into an American English box is all too prevalent in North America.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    The correct pronunciation is always ... whatever the current director says it is.
    Thanked by 4Carol CHGiffen a_f_hawkins francis
  • Elmar
    Posts: 506
    The only thing I know for sure that scholars disagree even on what the criteria of a 'correct' pronunciation should be, so there just cannot be a final answer.
    (Is Ky-ri-e e-le-i-son 'more correct' than Ky-rie-lei-son?)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    I don't think this bit of Greek pronunciation can be settled as "correct" any more than the pronunciation of Latin (Italian style vs. German style) can be settled.
    Thanked by 3PaxTecum Elmar Andrew_Malton
  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 315
    Chonak, I came here to say just that! However, I prefer something similar to the 5 syllable pronunciation suggested by Salieri.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 417
    Not to nitpick, but you’re actually trying to pronounce Greek, not Latin.
    Thanked by 5madorganist Nathan_the_Organist CHGiffen PaxTecum MNadalin
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    When appearing as a response in a litany we hear (rightly) ky-ri-e- e-le-i-son. This, regardless of most contexts seems to me to be reasonable and correct. Most Gregorian settings of kyrie sing ky---ri-- eh - - - - -- (eh) ------ | eh - - - ley- i - son
    (e.g. Cum jubilo)

    I once was good friends with a German (Klaus Kratzenstein, who could improvise a trio sonata in Baroque style) who insisted that we pronounce kyrie the German way, kuh-re-eh. I vote for the four syllable version and avoid the diphthong.

    The Lutherans have a class of hymns known as 'leisen', which feature 'eleison' as a refrain at the end of every stanza - except when it is shortened to 'kyrieleis'. One of two seems authoritative - exchelsis or exshelsis. The latter is less euphonious and is apt to suggest egg shells.
    Thanked by 2Elmar MatthewRoth
  • monasteryliturgistmonasteryliturgist
    Posts: 314
    If it helps, we have sisters in a monastery of Greek Rite, and they tell is it should be four syllables and even that the E in KYRIE to ElEISON should be distinct because of the accent... at least that was what they told us, they are from greece so I assume thats pretty trust worthy...
    Thanked by 5sdtalley3 M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen Elmar ServiamScores
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 263
    In most cases I agree with @monasteryliturgist, especially in chants. I see more of the diphthong usage when its applied in sacred polyphony, and even then its an mixture of the two in some arrangements.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    I kinda think the Kyrie in the Roman Rite Mass is pronounced the way Queen Elizabeth II deliberately pronounces French (to gall the Gauls; Romans could adopt a similar attitude to the Greeks); the Y is not really pronounced like Greek (and if it were, it would likely impair pitch in the mouths of amateur singers).
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,189
    Well, my original question was supposed to be specifically about the so-called ecclesiastical pronunciation, since I don't really want to just have my own opinion when the question arises.

    Of course the kyrieleyson itself is a bit of a stumbling block and I might have guessed I'd get a dozen different answers. However at this point I'm certain that the "official ecclesiastical pronunciation" is four syllables, even though the above suggestions and opinions to the contrary are well worthy.

    One point though: Kyrie and eleison (and on Good Friday, hagios theos athanatos ischyros) are Greek words borrowed into the Latin liturgy: like Alleliluia and Amen are ditto from Hebrew or Aramaic. We don't try to pronounce the latter in those languages, but in Latin: and the former, Greek, the same, I think.
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    We learned 'Gloria in egg-shells' in kindergarten for the Christmas concert. I never forgot.
  • jcr
    Posts: 141
    Way back in the fifties it was a popular intermediary rehearsal procedure for some choral directors to teach "egg-shell-sees" to choirs. If one didn't know what the goal of the pronunciation was (to learn to avoid ekk sell- etc.), then we heard some very odd Latin, indeed. The next step was, of course correct Latin.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    jcr has it: it's a choral-unification technique, much like imagining the letter "H" following every long vowel in Latin, to avoid dipthongualization.
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    dipthongualization. love it!
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    [OFF TOPIC: I thought "hypochondriocracy" was the best word I had run into recently. Now I can add dipthongualization. I use "unconfusification" sometimes with students.]

    ON TOPIC:

    Is the reason "h" in mihi and nihil being pronounced as a "k" that this is the simplest way to approximate an aspirate h?
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,912
    Who on earth sings "miki"? I've never heard of such a thing.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    We do. Some medieval manuscripts even spell it "michi".
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,912
    Learn something new every day.
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    We sing miki, too.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    [k] would be the Italianate pronunciation of ch, which is also why the Germans pronounce michi with [ç].
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,092
    Is the reason "h" in mihi and nihil being pronounced as a "k" that this is the simplest way to approximate an aspirate h?


    I think it has to do with audibility and having a distinct beginning to the syllable.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jeffrey,

    Do I understand correctly that you think I've analyzed the situation correctly? No one can hear a Roman h, so we aspirate it?
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