Your favourite Masses

Schönbergian

The Alleluia itself can be relatively simple (or a truncated melismatic Alleluia, as I use) but the verset sung by the cantor has little reason not to be florid.

Salieri

My congregation sings the incipit of Alleluia: Dies sanctificatus from memory, daily.

The difficulty has been/is getting people to realize that the music is integral to the liturgy in itself, and not just a thing to be gotten through while the clergy walk from point A to point B.

After over fifty years of utility music at Mass, beauty has become an unwelcome, foreign interloper in the N.O. speed-Mass culture.

Richard Mix

I've sometimes mulled Alleluia: Dies sanctificatus as a starting place for introducing the jubilus. Salieri, how do you do the proper verses?

a_f_hawkins

Salieri - it may be deeper than that, radio and television have weakened the liturgical idea that moving from A to B is a significant act itself.

stulte

My "favorite" Mass setting tends to change periodically. Right now, I keep putting on Monteverdi's Missa In Illo Tempore to listen to. It's sadly an overlooked gem of a setting.

Aristotle Esguerra

I was thinking about masses for liturgical use – in my case that means: mixed voices, NO, usually unaccompanied

As my own NO situation limits me to the Kyrie XVI/Gloria XV*/Credo III**/Sanctus XVIII/Agnus XVIII minimum standard (cf. Voluntati obsequens/Iubilate Deo), if I were to program a choral Mass setting for my own situation, brevity would be the decisive factor. But even then…

Some years ago I wrote a simple three-part Mass setting (Kyrie/Sanctus/Agnus) intended for the students in my homeschool co-op class. I believed it to be compact (homophonic, declamatory, no “unnecessarily” repeated texts other than two triple Hosanna in excelsis in the Sanctus and Benedictus), but with the way the NO apparently is intended to flow, all parts seemed intrusive in their length when we sang it for said co-op’s graduation Mass.

*ICEL
**ICEL, only used on Sunday and if the celebrant remembers to intone it or explicitly instructs me to intone it in his stead.

smt

A lot of this is purely practical: there are an amazing number of high quality works, available for free online, that lend themselves to being sung by small choirs.

True, that's why I am asking for some orientation. The amount is so huge that it's difficult to navigate.

Improving the Alleluia and Psalm should come before almost anything else.

Interesting. I've never seen a problem in singing Psalm and Alleluia verse on a Psalm tone. Situation in Germany: 1) you can be happy if the psalm is not replaced by a random hymn 2) there are collections of simple compositions for the RP, like the "Freiburger Kantorenbuch". It's sometimes quite nice, but still I'm not sure what to think about it. The psalm is surely not perceived as a lecture any more, but I doubt whether this is the case at all. I don't think this would be a big step for liturgical music.

The Alleluia: Wow, Dies sanctificatus with congregation, that's impressive and nice. I'll think about this.

Schönbergian

Psalm tones were intended for mass recitation of 20+ verses with an easy formula, not 3–5 verses by a solo cantor. The chants that are most proper to the solo idiom are the Gregorian Gradual verse and Alleluia verset, and they should be our compositional models. The use of Office tones for the RP is fundamentally a false tradition and misuse of what was originally intended for the Office.

ServiamScores

I positively love Christoph Dalitz’s Missa Tribus Vocibus. There are recordings of each movement on my Serviam Scores YouTube channel. It is wonderful; it is composed in the vein of the renaissance masses of yore but it is short enough and comes in just under the threshold of what is too difficult for amateur choirs, and it works very well at Novus ordo masses, which most of the bigger renaissance masses do not.

NihilNominis

Even the monks of Solesmes shortened the Gradual and Alleluia to psalm tones for parish use... see the Chants Abreges.

An ICKSP priest a world-class friend works for insists on fauxbourdons for these parts — “this is not a monastery”.

Don’t confuse what is in the pristine books with what was really done. At a parish Missa Cantata with abbreviated ceremonies and no incense, why would we expect the propers to be sung in full always, if the priest is efficient? That doesn’t mean that we abandon ourselves to the Rossini books, either.

Practical, beautiful, time-minding solutions to these moments that respect the flow of the rite set by the celebrant are desirable and needful.

Salieri

At weekdays, I sing the verse from the Lectionary to the mode ii Office tone; Most Sundays, I sing the verse from the Lectionary to the mode ii Introit tone, adding the short mode ii Antiphon melisma from the Sarum antiphonale. I also have a tone that I put together from musical phrases of the authentic verses; they are used on some Solemnities (text from lectionary) and for the First Alleluia during Eastertide.

a_f_hawkins

The use of Office tones for the RP is fundamentally a false tradition

It would be a misuse for the Gradual, but the RP is different. We normally get 3 or 4 double verses, because we are supposed to hear and follow the text. Whether the RP is/was a good idea or not it is delivered from the ambo, because it is a reading (sung because it is from the Temple hymn book). This has not been the Roman tradition at Mass, it may reflect ancient practice from the time of Jerome and Augustine.
As I said above, if there are two readings before the Gospel, I think using the Gradual instead of the RP may be sensible, simply because there is too much text to take in. Weekdays have more engaged congregations, and usually fewer readings.

Salieri

For regular parish use, here are some simple Unison Masses: I pull movements from these from time to time, for a change from the all-Gregorian ordinaries we usually do:

Neukomm: Missa Rurale
Magri: Mass in D
Leonard: Mass in F
Willan: Mass of St. Teresa

When doing individual movements, I tend to pair a Kyrie and Agnus Dei, or just do the Gloria or just the Sanctus. (I know Bugnini tried to turn the Sanctus into a "response" said by all, like "and with your spirit", but he's dead. Sue me.)

Aristotle Esguerra

@smt

Some Mass settings I've employed with success within the context of the TLM that fit your criteria:

Three voices
- Asola, Missa prima a 3
- Asola, Missa secunda a 3
- Dalitz, Missa tribus vocibus
- Dalitz, Missa «Salve Regina»
- Haller, Missa prima, Op. 4
- Haller, Messe secunda, Op. 5
- Lotti, Mass in C major "Student Mass"
Four voices
- di Lasso, Missa octavi toni (Jäger)
- Hassler, Missa super «Dixit Maria»
- Hassler, Missa secunda
- Monteverdi, Messa da cappella a 4vv. (1641)
- Rota, Missa brevis a 4
- Victoria, Missa quarti toni

Don9of11

When I sang in St. Mary's Choir in Akron, OH (1977-2005) we celebrate once a month a NOL, Novus Ordo Latin Mass.

Ordinary Time = Mass in G by Theodore La Hache, this was our go to mass setting for most of the NOL that we celebrated. We learned other mass settings but this is the one we sang most of the time. The congregation knew this mass more than any other.

Every other year on Christmas and Easter in our parish we celebrated NOL.

Christmas = Christmas Carol Mass by James Korman or Choral Mass In Honor of the Infant Jesus by W.J. Marsh.

Easter = Mass in Honor of the Holy Family by C. Cremer or Mass in Honor of Our Lady of Loretto by H. Mentzel.

I remember a couple of times for Easter and Christmas we used Mass in Honor of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary by John Wiegand. I also remember singing the Agnus Dei from the Mass in E Flat by Will M. Browne. I don't remember the occasion and I don't recall that we sang the whole mass. I just remember learning the the Agnus Dei.

vansensei

Rheinberger, Double Choir in E-flat

Schubert Mass in G

Missa O Quam Gloriosum - Victoria

Martin -- Mass for Double Choir

One that barring one or two solos and themes is non-liturgical:Mass in B Minor - J.S. Bach

sdtalley3

My favorite Gregorian mass(es) would have to be:
Mass III
Mass IV
Polyphonic settings: Missa Aeterna
Christi Munera-G.P. da Palestrina
Missa Pro Defunctis, 5 voices -Same.

I could include some of the previous selections mentioned above, like JS Bach etc.
I‘m not the biggest fan of repeating any repertoire over an extended period, because then it just becomes boring to me. These are just a few of my favorites.

I will also throw in a recent work by M_R_Taylor, who posted a recent setting in another thread. I took a liking to it as well.

ServiamScores

Not to derail the thread again, but I happened to be trawling around for a nice quote about sacred music for the worship aid this week and I stumbled across this line in De Musica Sacra et Sacra Liturgia (1958) which jumped out to me in light of what has been discussed above:

21. c) But if for some reason a choir cannot sing one or another liturgical text according to the music printed in the liturgical books, the only permissible substitution is this: that it be sung either recto tono, i.e., on a straight tone, or set to one of the psalm tones. Organ accompaniment may be used. Typical reasons for permitting such a change are an insufficient number of singers, or their lack of musical training, or even, at times, the length of a particular rite or chant.

liampmcdonough

I was not aware of the Haller Masses. Very useful setting for those of us short on men!

BruceL

To those who "tire" of renaissance polyphonic masses, I'd suggest going through ALL the di Lasso Masses. He was, truly, the best of the time, and an excellent singer, too. Even the parody Masses have lots of "puzzles" that are fun. If you have a group of good singers who are also willing to work, I find his work so rewarding. We are doing the Doulce Memoire Mass this coming week, and it's fantastic...but totally different than the di Lasso parody Mass we did last season.

m_r_taylor

Very kind of you Mr. Talley!

Salieri

I think where the "Too much Renaissance" problem comes from in Trad. circles is the over-use of Palestrina because of it's alleged "canonization" in Tra le. I don't often hear of Ockeghem Masses being performed, or even Josquin.

Early Renaissance, Franco-Flemish polyphony has more variety, IMHO, than later Roman polyphony. Palestrina is good, but I could easily level against his Masses the same charge as that which is levelled against Vivaldi's concertos.

Jeffrey Quick

Of course, the canonization began long before TLS or even the Caecilians.But yes. But also, for Palestrina, all you have to be able to do is to count to 2, and anyone who can chant can do that, while there's a specific rhythmic language in 15th-c music to be mastered. It's not hard, but most amateur (and some professionals) don't come "out of the box" being able to do it.

There's a story I heard from the electronic composer John Eaton (1935-2015). He had written a piece for a friend's wedding in Italy. They were rehearsing, and the priest came out in a state of agitation.
Fr.: God doesn't like that music!
Eaton: What kind of music does God like?
Fr.: Gregorian chant!

It so happened that the piece included Gregorian chant, which Eaton pointed out to the padre.

Fr.: God only likes chant used as in the music of Palestrina.
Eaton: God has pretty narrow taste, doesn't He?
Fr.: Yes, God does!

smt

Atm I really love Byrd's masses. They are truly "composed", not just parody masses, Byrd truly paints the words. Does anybody have experiences with 5v mass? I always assumed that it's the most complicated just bc it has more voices, but actually... after looking at the score I think it's not harder than the 4v. What do you think?

Thanks for the encouragement to Lassus. I also would like to do some really old stuff, like Dufay or from the Trent codices. Any experiences there?

And as a sidenote: When looking at masses I usually just look at the Kyrie, Sanctus/Benedictus and Agnus Dei as these are the parts I could use in the liturgy. The rest would be done as plainchant. Otherwise its simply too long. In the NO even the Sanctus is probably better sung as plainchant.

BruceL

4v much more challenging than 5v, especially in Gloria and Credo. The writing isn't as smooth, etc. The 5v is really Byrd at his peak, although the 3v is probably more amazing because it seamlessly covers the lack of a fourth voice.

vansensei

Is there a conductor daring enough to try an Ockeghem Mass one Sunday?

Jehan_Boutte

My favorite Mass is probably the "Missa Regia" by Henry du Mont, which is still quite popular in France.
I also love the "Missa de Sancta Maria Magdalena" by Healey Willan, though I have never attended a Mass where it was sung.

sdtalley3

@Jehan Boutte,

I just transcribed the du Mont mass for a friend in Minnesota, and I liked it as well, the only recordings I listened to on YouTube, were voice and accompaniment, but what I was given was made for 4 voices and organ, minus the Credo. I'll attach the file but in all I liked it and hope to hear the full deal someday.

Jehan_Boutte

@sdtalley3

This is a really great job! Did you harmonize the Mass yourself in order to have it sung with four voices?
Also, would you mind if I borrowed your transcription?

sdtalley3

@Jehan_Boutte

No, I didn't harmonize it, only transcribed it from a copy that looked old, copied, cut and pasted together at some point. He was only looking for recordings to help his choir for a wedding, but regardless, in order for me to do so I had to write out the whole thing to help him in this regard. I'll have to see if he has the Credo in his archives as well, and add that to this.

Go ahead and borrow/use as you please.

Casavant Organist

Ockeghem makes a regular appearance at the Toronto Oratory with Aaron James. They're pretty adventurous over there.
We're doing one of my all-time favourites this Sunday at my church - Missa de la Batalla Escoutez by Guerrero.

StimsonInRehab

Does anybody have experiences with 5v mass?

The first polyphonic mass I ever conducted was Byrd’s Five Voice, done for a friend’s wedding in St Joseph’s down in Jasper. We sang everything except the Credo and the Gloria, which we replaced with the Gloria from Lassus’s Hunter Mass for the sake of brevity. It’s a piece of cake.

vansensei

@sdtalley3

As an aside, we very likely know the same person in Minnesota because I've sung that exact same transcription. Ironically, for a wedding as well. In 2021. It's quite nice. Gloria incipit is a little high for many priests but otherwise, it's a nice transcription.

sdtalley3

@vansensei

That wedding wouldn't happen to have been recently would it?

smt

Another question concerning Lent: Which masses do you use for this season? Traditionally it would probably be better to stay with plainchant, but as someone mentioned elsewhere it's maybe not the best idea to build a strong association between gregorian chant and penance...

Jeffrey Quick

I don't have a complete mixed ensemble. And I don't do things in Advent and Lent that have independent organ parts (how I keep the "bad choir" loophole an actual loophole instead of an open gate). And we do chant all year around. So we do Mass XVII, and for Gaudete/Laetare we do whatever we would normally do (1-2 voice Mass settings), minus the Gloria of course.

ServiamScores

My favorite Mass is probably the "Missa Regia" by Henry du Mont, which is still quite popular in France.

I seriously contemplated introducing this mass at our parish this year. Even sent it to the pastor so we could discuss it. At the moment, I haven't taken the plunge, but I really do love it.

StimsonInRehab

The anonymous 17th century Missa Ferialis found in the archives of the Granada Cathedral is a very good choice for Advent or Lent. Very simple.

Jeffrey Quick

found in the archives of the Granada Cathedral

And for those of us without access to that archive...is there an edition available?

BruceL

Malcolm Missa ad Praesepe. If you haven't listened...do it.

StimsonInRehab

Sorry - I’m a bit of a Luddite when trying to put links on the smartphone. This link obviously isn’t live but hope it helps. (Aristotle’s editions are always top notch)

https://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Missa_ferialis_(Anonymous)

Jeffrey Quick

Wow! That's totally simple but not cheap. Thank you, and thank you to Mr. Esguerra.

stulte

Palestrina is good, but I could easily level against his Masses the same charge as that which is levelled against Vivaldi's concertos.

I strongly suspect that this is in no small part due to the fact that we only ever hear a tiny fraction of his output of Masses. One could sing a different Mass setting by Palestrina every single Sunday for two years before you had to repeat one of them. But, what usually is sung? Missae Aeterna Christi Munera, Brevis, et Papae Marcelli. Sometimes, Iste Confessor, Assumpta Est Maria, and maybe one or two others. Don't get me wrong, they're great! But, I'd love to hear or sing his Missa Sicut Lilium or Missa Dum Complerentur sometime. Even for a smaller group, Missa Ave Regina Caelorum would be a nice break from the A.C.M. and Brevis.

While I'm thinking of it, another fellow whose Masses are often ignored is Gregorio Allegri. Missa che fa oggi il mio sole and Missa Vidi Turbam Magnam (the former based on music by Luca Marenzio and the later on a motet by Palestrina) are both very nice.

Another question concerning Lent: Which masses do you use for this season?

I'll probably use Missa XVII. I recently took over a group at our Cathedral and am working on getting them more exposure to chant Ordinaries besides de Angelis. We did Orbis Factor for the past month and a half. We'll move onto Missa IX Cum Jubilo for Advent/Christmas/Epiphanytide.

Liam

Here's a direct link to one of the two PDFs of that MF:

https://www.cpdl.org/wiki/images/6/64/Missa_Ferialis_(complete)_-_Anonymous.pdf

Chris Garton-Zavesky

Stulte,

I think you'll find that in far too many places your list of "frequent" Palestrina Mass settings is far too large to accommodate what they actually sing.

rich_enough

I think where the "Too much Renaissance" problem comes from in Trad. circles is the over-use of Palestrina because of it's alleged "canonization" in Tra le. I don't often hear of Ockeghem Masses being performed, or even Josquin.

I beg to differ - most of it is simply practical logistics.

In addition to what Jeffrey said (the bar for entry is quite a bit higher), the last time I sang a Josquin Mass it took twice the time just to get the notes and the Sanctus kept the priest waiting (he didn't mind). The result was thrilling, but it was a real workout even for the pros and would be pretty tough to pull off with a completely amateur choir.

More often than not the voice ranges of Ockeghem et al. do not lend themselves to a standard SATB choir, and the lines are so long that it's very difficult for a small ensemble to sing unless they are really expert. Ditto for the duets in many Josquin masses - they're not for the faint of heart!

Perhaps Palestrina and the Roman school can become bland after a while for some, but most non-musicians in the pews delight in what is familiar to them rather than what might excite the members of the choir.

I'm grateful for any Renaissance I can do and don't see it as a "problem"!

John_F_Church

Thanks for asking! I’ve often tried to put together a top ten of this very question.

Of course I love any of the Gregorian Masses (especially Mass VIII — normie, I know. But also IX and XI.)

Then Palestrina — Missa Aeterna Christi Munera and Missa Brevis are Faves of mine.

But aside from classic chant and Palestrina, here are some others.

Latin:
• Monteverdi: Massa a quattri voci (1641) [also, his posthumous one]
• Gounod: Messe Chorale
• William Lloyd Webber: Missa Princeps Pacem
• Rheinberger: Mass in Eb for Double Choir
• Ralph Vaughn Williams: Mass in G minor
• Perosi: Missa Cerviana
• Max Filke: Mass in G (in honor of St Charles Borromeo)
• Liszt: Missa Choralis
• Lotti: Mass in D major for 3 voices
• Caldera/Zelenka: Missa “Providentiae” in D minor

As far as English goes, I like Clark’s JP2 Mass, and any mass by Jeff Ostrowski.

Jehan_Boutte

@ServiamScores

I seriously contemplated introducing this mass at our parish this year. Even sent it to the pastor so we could discuss it. At the moment, I haven't taken the plunge, but I really do love it.

Go for it. It is a great Mass to sing, especially for the greater feasts.

RedPop4

Speaking of George Malcom – I just recently discovered him (as a composer) and I really like his Neo-renaissance style. But it seems to me that it's not that much what he wrote and it's hard to find scores. Do they keep it in a safe in Westminster? Or was I just unable to find the publisher? Thanks for help.

My director, just this morning, asked me to find Malcolm's Benedic Anima Mea and it's like hen's teeth.

dad29

Flor Peeters, 2 of them: Mass in honor of St Joseph, and the Missa Laudis/St John the Baptist (not in print.)

Both fine for standard parish choir.

Welcome to the MusicaSacra Forum!

Categories