Chant Antiphons and Hymns Vernacular Weekday Vespers
  • JesJes
    Posts: 568
    G'day,

    My glimmer of hope is that my priests have agreed we should pray vespers in community which will end up for now being on zoom - and naturally being the musicky one I have gone out on the hunt to find scores and of my 17 books dedicated to chanting the office in various languages and rites NOT ONE seems to have the exact vespers antiphons I need!

    Please if you can direct me to the appropriate source - I am seeking some help to source chant notation of antiphons in particularly for Novus Ordo Vespers in English! If they are ready made somewhere I'd be happy to purchase (if not for this week's Thursday then for future weeks.) I believe this week is Thursday IV.

    I have been searching many websites, books, gregobase, ccwatershed, here, etc. I'm not hitting much luck re. English notated Antiphons - was it simply never done?

    So I came up with a solution - find the latin chants and re-arrange for vernacular... BUT
    I am coming unstuck because the text in Universalis and the texts I have for chants etc aren't quite aligning... I basically dunno what is real and what isn't anymore!
    e.g.
    universalis
    Misericordia mea et refugium meum Dominus:
    In ipso speravi.
    translate
    He is my comfort and my refuge.
    In Him I put my trust.

    Antiphonale
    Misericordia mea et refugium meum Dominus:
    susceptor meus, et liberator meus.


    Intro (assuming without invitatory cos clergy and I also already have prayed this) ✓
    Hymn - Deus Qui Claro Lumine - Liber Hymnarius pg 233 ✓
    Misericordia mea et refugium meum - AAARGH! X - I think... [270] Antiphonale if the 2nd one?
    Beatus Populus - Antiphonale Pg 178 ✓
    Nunc Facta Est Salus - Antiphonale Monasticum II pg 300 ✓
    Short Responsory ✓
    Esurientes iustitiam before the Magnificat - AAAARGH! X
    Magnificat- Liber Cantualis pg 90 ✓

    ANY of this in english? No, I don't have this... BUT I can notate from the Latin to make it work... I got a good enough grasp of the gabc stuff to do it.

    Any tips?

    I am very excited - we have a team of priests here and the more we start to do this the more monastic of a feel we may get. It's an interesting combo here 1 ex dominican, 1 ex franciscan and a fresh out of sem diocesan. Their original charisms are very much a part of each person and it is exciting to see these work together and now pray office together. I honestly love that they have agreed to do vespers in community - just wish it wasn't a weekday I can't find materials for!!!

    If I have to cheat I'll just use chant tools but... I'd like to try avoid that. What am I missing?

    Books I have:
    Antiphonale Monasticum 3 vols.
    Antiphonale EF PDF
    Cantus Selecti
    Liber Hymnarius
    Liber Cantualis


    Thank you in advance!


    *****DISCLAIMER*****
    Yes, yes, why not do EF etc. (please don't come at me!) but hey... this is bread and butter here in Melbourne where we are still locked down day 240+ with 5 more weeks of this harsh one to go and where I have convinced my team of priests to zoom vespers (then they chose a weekday and they chose OF Vespers and I only have resources for Sundays or pre Vat II don't I?) Please can someone help me understand what mess I've landed in before I start inventing notation for all this? (The priests already know this is challenging me!) Oh and who knows Motu Proprio yada yada (I find myself becoming more Greta and going BLAH BLAH BLAH way more often...) well... here it sounds like priests have to ask even to say TLM privately... this is another issue not for here! Please don't come at me about this I genuinely want help with OF Vespers in English Vernacular specifically - if you wish to grumble about the Motu Proprio please take it to a different thread! I've done enough grumbling on my own! (Cos being on one's own here is just about the only thing that is legal!)
    *****END*****


  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,730
    @Jes - Universalis and my copy of the Divine Office both agree that first antiphon is
    "The Lord is my love and my refuge; in him I place my trust"
    The version you quote is for the US LOTH, which is not authorised for public worship in Melbourne. So if you make sure you set your Universalis calendar to Melbourne, I think you can trust it
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Jes
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,730
    There is a free source of simple chant from Fr Samuel Weber here : https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8-wRwkTf2OfLWlRTlRnMlByQUk/view?resourcekey=0-KxKClHjFOm6r4hTW9HzzOw
    The tones for the chant come near the beginning, pages 11-14 of the pdf. The pointing is for the American version, so no use to you, but the simple tones are of course suited to any words.
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • GerardH
    Posts: 229
    @Jes You're running into the problem that the OF Liturgia Horarum has a myriad of antiphons which do not exist in the Gregorian repertory. Because of this, to chant the LH in Latin, you need to refer to the Ordo Cantus Officii 2015, which dictates which antiphons should be sung for any given office, but doesn't actually provide the music. Some of these chants are published in books for the OF - the Antiphonale Romanum I and II have chants for Sunday Lauds and Vespers respectively - but many of them are very difficult to track down. Other forum members are of better assistance there.

    But then once you get the "correct" Latin chants, many won't match the texts as they appear in the Liturgia Horarum, and those won't match the English translation. Basically, if you want to adapt Gregorian antiphons to the English text, most of the time there will be no corresponding Gregorian antiphon to adapt. If you are to continue down the route of English adaptation, you'll basically have to pick a Gregorian melody at random to emulate.

    Sorry if I'm unclear, I'm typing on my phone while on lunch break

    P.S. I have a full adaptation of Compline in the OF Commonwealth translation to chant that I made a few years ago. Let me know if you'd like a copy
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Jes
  • JesJes
    Posts: 568
    Thanks @a_f_hawkins Universalis reset itself to US when I added the Latin to source the chants so good spot!

    Thanks @GerardH it is so sad this hasn't happened yet, some of the antiphons are melodies memorised by priests... I would please love the adaptation of compline - would love to push for more public office at my parish in general.
  • GerardH
    Posts: 229
    ...it is so sad this hasn't happened yet...

    It is so sad that a full Latin chanted office doesn't even exist yet in the OF, let alone the vernacular.

    Having gotten home, I find that the antiphons for the Magnificat for Thursdays in the 4-week psalter are on page 124 of the Antiphonale Monasticum II. The texts aren't exact matches, but they quote the same scripture verses.

    I'll DM you with Compline once I've checked it over.
    Thanked by 2Jes tomjaw
  • JesJes
    Posts: 568
    @GerardH You Bewdy! (Thank you this is wonderful)

    I've had a bit of a crack at this... I'll send you what I make - you never know when you need a Thursday Vespers Week IV eh?
  • joerg
    Posts: 115
    The latin antiphons for the 4week cycle are on Antiphonale.net
    For Thursday week 4 it's the links 4H5V1, 4H5V2, 2H5V3 and 2H5VM.
  • A few comments:
    1. Fr. Samuel Weber has all the Liber Hymnarius Hymns Translated into English which can be downloaded for free. If you contact him he also is always more than happy to help adapt any chant for antiphons etc.
    2. The reason why antiphons havent been officially adapted yet is because of the pending 2nd Edition English Breviary which is supposed to surface in 2023/2024 so it would really be a waste of time. However I know that the Dominicans have a book of Antiphons that they composed which are not based from the antiphonale but have the same spirit of chant ... but they are not in chant notation, but in classical so our sisters had a hard time following them and in the end we just began singing in RECTO TONO the antiphons until the new translation comes out.
    3. My community does have the entire psalmody notated in gregorian and I can send the files if you are interested but just know that this is the USA translation and it will soon change but Im sure it is not so different so that you could change the words which needed to be changed yourself.

    In fine... its hard to work on too many new things until the new stuff comes out. Only the new psalmody has appeared so I have begun making the notation but its going to take a while.

    Hope that helps.
    Sr. Marie
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,730
    Jes - are you looking to do something like :-
    Parish Sunday Vespers
    Beattie, Michael
    Published by Collins, London, 1982
    ISBN 10: 0005996996ISBN 13: 9780005996997
    No use for the antiphons, but a variety of suggestions for setting the psalms. Copies are still to be found second hand, and there are some in libraries, including NLA (though currently closed by your Covid clampdown.)
    I don't know how Westminster Cathedral is doing Vespers now, but for many-many years (unless there was Solemn Choral Vespers earlier, Sundays & major feasts) it was a cantor-congregation service in the Lady Chapel starting half an hour before the Choral Mass, a twenty+ minute service. They may be able to provide you with materials, particularly antiphon settings. The congregational psalms/canticles were, I think, Bevenot which are simple enough for visitors and complex enough enough for sustained use for decades.