The Gloria has become “optional” in a lot of places
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 284
    Since the pandemic’s beginning, I’ve watched a lot of different Masses on YouTube. I’m a nosy person and like to see what’s being done in typical NO Catholic parishes across the U.S. I normally don’t watch the entire Mass but skip around and see what’s being done at certain points.

    Well, one thing I’ve noticed is that the Gloria seems to have become “optional” in a lot of places. Yes, I’m talking about the omitting of the Gloria from Sunday Mass. I’ve seen two recordings already for today, and both parishes omitted the Gloria.

    What is the purpose of this? How much time is really being saved by skipping over the Gloria? Three minutes with a through-composed setting, if that? It’s highly disconcerting that one would feel the need to cut a portion of the Mass in favor of time. Why can’t we cut some time from Father’s homily?
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    I've encountered that once, at a parish run by a very progressive religious order. Yes, "to save time" was the excuse.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Well, speaking of online Masses, our pariah's Livestream next Sunday should be interesting to watch.
    Our 11:30 TLM will be a "Traditional Novus Ordo" Mass, instead, because of priests being out of town and the only available sub being someone who is learning, but is not yet properly versed (reason given to us laity) in the TLM.
    So, we'll be singing the Gregorian propers, it will obviously be as oriented, etc., all that is allowed of the TLM in the NO,
    We shall see how it goes. It's really the best place to put it, I guess, since those at the Mass are wanting it to be TLM, not NO, and therefore at least will not be complaining about the Traditional elements...
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,889
    Lest there be my confusion, the Gloria is not optional, and should be recited if it cannot be sung:
    The Gloria in Excelsis

    53. The Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the highest) is a most ancient and venerable hymn by which the Church, gathered in the Holy Spirit, glorifies and entreats God the Father and the Lamb. The text of this hymn may not be replaced by any other. It is intoned by the Priest or, if appropriate, by a cantor or by the choir; but it is sung either by everyone together, or by the people alternately with the choir, or by the choir alone. If not sung, it is to be recited either by everybody together or by two choirs responding one to the other.

    It is sung or said on Sundays outside Advent and Lent, and also on Solemnities and Feasts, and at particular celebrations of a more solemn character.


    (GIRM)
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn Nathan_the_Organist Don9of11 toddevoss
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I was instructed by a priest to not use the Gloria unless it was sung. Is that fairly common practice?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    This is sad indeed. These are the people who think that they are Vatican II people, but don't care what Vatican II actually said - and they now no longer even care what the GIRM says. It's 3 or less minutes that can be added father's not very inspiring homily, or it is 3 or less minutes less just to get the mass over and done with. And, sadly, it is doubtful that very many of the people even notice it, or, noticing it, confront father about it - because they don't care either, or because they think that whatever father does is licit (whatever 'licit' means). I wouldn't be surprised its reason is that the word 'Father' is used (Of course, the Episcopalians shockingly made Gloria optional in the '79 Prayer Book, but at least they required another canticle in its place,)

    Their is always the possibility that they are opposed to to the words Father, He, for us men, and Lord and giver of life giver of life..... et det, et cet ad nauseam
  • Nathan_the_Organist
    Posts: 440
    It's quite sad how many people treat the GIRM like the Code of the Brethren from Pirates of the Caribbean: more like guidelines than actual rules.
    Thanked by 2Don9of11 Jani
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    What is also sad is that the Kyrie has for all practical purposes, disappeared. I hope the Gloria is not the next to be abandoned. The major problems with the NO are not the vernacular and new translations. It is option-itis, to make up a word, where everything becomes optional and subject to variation.
    Thanked by 4ServiamScores M. Jackson Osborn Caleferink donr
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,889
    I wish I could remember where I read this, but apparently there was a mathematician who calculated the number of permutations of the novus ordo missæ when you take all of the options into account. If I recall correctly, it was in the billions. IE–following the rubrics to a 't' means that there are 1billion different [legitimate] variations of this rite.
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    @CharlesW,

    At St. Paul's in Akron, Ohio in the NO, we either sing the Kyrie or repeat what the deacon chants, sometimes he chants the Kyrie. If we have instrumentation the Gloria is always sung, if we don't have instrumentation we chant the ICEL version.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,889
    I think a cue needs to be taken from how most parishes handle the creed. Very few parishes actually sing the creed—at least relatively speaking. But every parish recites it. I would think that any parish that decides they cannot sing the gloria, for whatever reason, would then revert to reciting it. As I said, neither is optional. If you can recite the creed, you can recite the gloria.
  • vansensei
    Posts: 219
    The liturgy is not ours to play with. The end.
    Thanked by 3ServiamScores toddevoss donr
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    FWIW, eliding the Gloria is much less common where I am than it was a generation ago.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 338
    My experience is like Liam's--20 years ago it seemed fairly common to omit the Gloria, but now it almost always occurs at Sunday Mass (and usually sung). Of course, one person's experience is simply one person's experience.
    Thanked by 2Liam tomjaw
  • hcmusicguy
    Posts: 63
    We sing it at every Sunday liturgy. Under our last pastor, sometimes it was recited as he did not care for singing it, but it was never omitted.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    The rule when I arrived at our parish was Gloria or Kyrie, but never both. That changed after we dropped the responsorial settings.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Occasionally on hot summer days, I've found priests omitting the Creed. Now that the Apostles' Creed is an option, they have less excuse to do so.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    With all these optional omissions, is it any wonder that people begin to think that attending Mass is optional?
    Thanked by 5Don9of11 Jani Caleferink toddevoss Joseph Michael
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    But I must say, some people see an option to do less or do worse, and they go for it. And others choose the better option instead. Some people, faced with temptation, say yes. Others double down on prayer. Some people, if their friends are going down the wrong road, join in. Others say no and desist from sin. The presence of bad examples is bad for those who are sinning, but creates no obligation for anyone else to join in.
    Thanked by 5tomjaw ServiamScores CHGiffen bhcordova Don9of11
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    And these are current, non-penitential-time Masses?

    Drop the dime, with the relevant part of the GIRM.

    They might stop streaming their Masses? Well, cry me a river. That's less evidence out there for it being a licit practice.
  • hcmusicguy
    Posts: 63
    It would be no skin off my nose if my pastor decided to exclusively recite the Gloria from now on. The reason being is that almost all musical settings of the revised text stink, except for those based on chant or in a chant style.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    ... almost all musical settings of the revised text stink, except for those based on chant or in a chant style.

    I respectfully disagree. Although there are plenty of poor settings of the revised text (especially shortly after the text became available), there are a goodly number of competent, sturdy, reverent, lofty, dignified and singable through-composed settings (I count my own as one among several). Just search around here in the forums.

    Thanked by 2Salieri Choirparts
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Unfortunately, I think that most parishes went with Revised Mess of Cremation or Kleineponymesse in 2010, and haven't looked for anything better.
    Thanked by 2Nathan_the_Organist mattebery
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    The most common variant in Rio, if the Gloria is shortened, seems to be various songs that only repeat the words 'Gloria nas alturas' or even just 'Gloria'. In a recent case a version went on long enough they could have sung all the words, but noooooo.
  • hcmusicguy
    Posts: 63
    CHGiffen, I suppose I should have clarified my opinion to mean the the majority of the settings found in the hymnals and throwaways by the big publishers that most parishes including mine are using. I tend to fairly strictly stay with through composed settings, as opposed to antiphonal ones, and I have found pretty much every setting in our worship resource to be lacking. Although not in our books, I will be introducing the revised Pope Paul VI to my congregation after Christmas.
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