Transfiguration offertory confusion
  • lmassery
    Posts: 359
    Friends,
    Can someone explain why Fr. Weber's offertory for Aug 6th, Gloria et honore, comes from Psalm 112:3, but the Gregorian Missal and Simple English Propers lists Psalm 8. The translations are completely different and seem to share only the same Latin incipit. Which one is correct?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,000
    I believe that the Psalm 8:6b-7 is the correct text.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,124
    GR says Gloria et honore & refers to p434. p434 is common of apostles extra TP and gives 4 choices the second of which is the correct ref Ps 8.
    Indeed the Graduale synopticum lists Gloria et honore used for IN GR AL OF & CO, every time as Ps.8
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • lmassery
    Posts: 359
    Is the psalm 112 text one of the possible choices for common of apostles on pg 434? Where did Weber get that text?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,124
    Liber usualis p1587?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,124
    RSV Psalm 112:3 Wealth and riches are in his house; and his righteousness endures for ever.
    VUL Psalm 111:3 gloria et divitiae in domo eius et iustitia eius manet in saeculum saeculi
    NAB Psalm 112:3 Wealth and riches shall be in his house; his righteousness shall endure forever.

    According to the Liber Usualis(1961), this is the Offertory for Aug.6 , my guess is that the melody is inauthentic, I cannot see it in the Graduale Synopticum, and was dropped, and a text with similar incipit and authentic melody substituted.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • lmassery
    Posts: 359
    Thank you!
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,124
    Throughout the life of Pius V Missal the Offertory was/is VUL Psalm 111:3 gloria et divitiae in domo eius et iustitia eius manet in saeculum saeculi. As it was in the earlier missals I have checked, and presumably since the establishment of the feast in the universal calendar by Callixtus III in 1457. Dom. Johner touches on the melody in the comment here.
    The only other use of that verse in the Mass was the third verse of a Tract Beatus vir widely used for saints, with a melody not suited to this use, GR p481f.
    As an advocate of the primacy of text I think if you are singing in English make the same choice as Fr Weber.



    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Evidently the melody of the offertory "Gloria et divitiae" was composed later, perhaps when the feast was introduced into the Western calendar in the 15th century.

    According to Dom Johner's Chants of the Vatican Gradual (p. 419), the latter part of the melody (from "manet in saeculum") was adapted from the last last part of the offertory for the common of abbots, "Desiderium animae" (from "coronam de lapide" (LU 1209).
    Thanked by 1tomjaw