• sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 198
    I have finished (hopefully) in cleaning up some of the form and phrasing of this work I have done last year. Aside from it being just a personal project of mine, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. I have only ever once heard a priest recite this creed at a low mass when I was younger while attending school.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 7,912
    This is really nice..
    We sing this creed in a litany-like form in procession at Walsingham (and, probably, throughout the Ordinariate) every Trinity Sunday - but, of course, in Old Church English. Your setting is quite beautiful. When do you envision it being sung. In many Lutheran churches this creed is recited every Trinity Sunday. I have never heard of it being used liturgically at a Catholic chruch.

    As we do it it is sung in procession in place of the processional hymn, the priest singing the first line and the people the second and so on.
    Thanked by 2sdtalley3 CHGiffen
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 198
    @ MJO

    I'm not sure if there is a when on the horizon...Some people might see the length of it and think, "No way!"...So if I can wrangle some warm bodies together I'll see. For now I don't think even in the TLM community it has been sung at a missa cantata, only recited by option at low mass. For right now, I'll be in Germany for another 2 weeks, so when I'm home I can propose it to some of my chant friends in the schola.
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  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 917
    It sings very very well. Singing it, I learned something about the rhetoric of the text, especially its repetitions expressive of the hierarchy in the Godhead -- thanks for that. And choosing mode IV is so right.

    As far as use -- it could also be used extra-liturgically, even at sacred concert. For it seems to be a composition in honor of the text -- and of the Holy Trinity!

    (If there be one small thing that might bear adjustment it's that I found the ends of phrases sometimes having two dotted puncta (per-só-nas) and sometimes the bipinctum followed by one dotted (in-cre-á-tus). I sing those two neumes differently, and I found the doubled dotted one a little too heavy sometimes, and I wanted to sing it the other way.)
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  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 198
    @ Andrew_Malton

    Thanks Andrew, and I'm open to revising it upon suggestion with good reason; modes 3 & 4 are little tricky in this regard but generally I see bipunctum followed by a dotted punctum on some cadences. I never really though about the difference when singing it. Were those the only two spots, or were there others that I could fix?

    Also I need to rethink annotating the mode, you said 4, I was thinking 3 (Trinity), but I think you maybe right on this one. Can you explain that a little more as the Finalis in both modes is "mi", but when it comes to defining the mode I think more in terms of authentic and plagal.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 917
    I hear it in mode IV because you recite most of the time on la. You do go well above the reciting tone in the middle, praising the Incarnation -- so maybe saying III is better for that. You quote the Te Deum a couple of times... and that's generally said to be in mode III. But the whole last page is surely mode IV. It's the cadences of those two modes, especially IV... the final just under the 2 degree (mi-fa)... speak to me of eternal, Divine energy, watchful, never sleeping, burning charity.

    Ahem.

    I prefer the bipunctum cadence because, again, it seems to have more energy. Singing I reiterate those two notes as two light puncta, without a trace of mora vocis, so even if there's a dot on the last note, the melody is ready to get going again on the next phrase. When you use the two dotted notes, it's emphatic, and effective, as at Christus and homo.

    My impression, anyway.
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 324
    If this is ever to be sung by a group, rather than a soloist, I think it would be convenient to have either each phrase (of the text) beginning on a new line, or else to add verse numbers before each phrase. It would help the eye not get lost in what is a very dense and wordy text, set by necessity in a basically syllabic way.
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  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 198
    @Andrew_Malton

    Yes, what you say makes sense to me and I looked at a couple of texts as well. Also, when I first set out to make this I did reference the Te Deum, so keen eye on that, I wanted it to harken back to that text of praise to God, but also as it was a mode 3 chant as well. The more noticeable thing to me was the Te Deum hovers more around "do", but considering the text size of the Athanasian Creed, it was more comfortable to make the more psalm verses on "la"... Yes indeed, it can be classed as mode IV.

    And could I ask you to suggest other areas where it would be better to utilize a bipunctum followed by a doted one please? This would help me immensly.

    Hopefully I can apply some of the suggested corrections at some point after I am back from Mass today.

    @ Gamba

    I can look at adding numbering to the verses, I thought about trying to avoid static lines, but sometimes the following verse more or less would not sound right to me because of the inflections of the wording and I (hopefully) try to make the plainchant follow this in a natural way. I'm also trying to see a good and better format using Source and Summit.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 770
    I see this as an option for Low Mass on Trinity Sunday, divided into four parts of course, or whenever the Quicumque is recited devotionally (e.g. paraliturgically) with some solemnity.

    Would love to see accent marks on the Latin text. Also, I guess I'm used to seeing notes left aligned on the vowel as opposed to centered on the syllable.
  • My Liber Usualis indicates that the Athanasian Creed is sung on Trinity Sunday at Prime, not during the Mass.
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  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 198
    @CGZ

    Yes, and that’s why I’ve only heard it recited at a low mass once in my life. In the Roman Rite, I don’t think we’ve set it to music for use in a Missa Cantata, but it's used psalm form in the Anglican Church and I happened upon that version on the web.
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 198
    @Chrism

    Would love to see accent marks on the Latin text. Also, I guess I'm used to seeing notes left aligned on the vowel as opposed to centered on the syllable.


    I'll see if that can be done as well (I agree), I'm not sure if there's a control for placing notes on Source & Summit; Maybe that can be done using GABC, but I don't have any experience using that.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,499
    not during the Mass.
    A lost opportunity to spell out for people what the Catholic Faith says about God.
    No slot in the OF, just Prime once a year in the EF, but clearly written out in the BCP for use at Morning Prayer 1413 times a year, and proclaimed in the Ordinariate.
  • Is it surprising (given that this Creed is sung at Prime) that the reformers wanted to abolish/suppress Prime?
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,051
    @ a_f_Hawkins
    it was traditionally said at Prime on Sundays when the Office was of the Sunday. The 1911 reforms reduced that to Sundays after Epiphany and Pentecost and on Trinity Sunday, except when a commemoration of a double feast or a day within an Octave occurred. The 1960 reforms further reduced its use to once a year, on Trinity Sunday.

    I thought we said it more often than just Trinity Sunday... but then I never say/sing the Office to 1960's rubrics. Sadly this is another example of a concerted effort by Rome to destroy the Liturgy starting in 1911 and reaching its conclusion in the N.O. reforms.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 770
    @sdtalley3 - I think the Latin alignment option in S&S should work? Alternatively, yes, there is a vowel lyric centering option on Gregorio.

    As far as accents go, the legacy Illuminare editor available from the S&S team makes it easy to accent vowels...just place your cursor to the right of the vowel and press the apostrophe (') key!
    Thanked by 1sdtalley3
  • Tomjaw,

    Please expatiate on this "concerted effort by Rome to destroy the liturgy starting in 1911", or, at least, point me in the direction of sources I can read to get up to speed.