Is it worth it to get your M.M.?
  • So I'm in a very unique situation here at St. Robert's: Both of the conductors here are your old-school Robert Shaw/Paul Salamunovich types in that they do not have degrees in music but are as competent if not more than those who do. I've met many others more and worked with many more who do not have those letters after their name but are very qualified musicians and educators, including one I've worked with for a number of years whose training is in voice, not conducting.

    Is it really worth it to get all those letters after your name?
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 539
    I suppose it depends on where you are in life and how much time you have. If you’re 75 and have been a choral conductor for ages and don’t anticipate getting back on the job market, hey, probably not.

    Can you pick up what you learn in an MM over 20 years of summer seminars, bedtime reading, private lessons, etc. while you hold down a full-time job? Sure, but then you’re playing with half a deck all those 20 years, and learning things the hard way that you could’ve learned in 2 solid MM years, with your focus 100% on learning.

    I got an MM right after my BM, and for me it was the right move. In hindsight, if I’d gone straight into full-time church work after my BM, I would’ve been missing quite a lot and been constantly frustrated and burnt out by problems I couldn’t recognize and solve without what I learned in my MM. That would’ve ruined my health and caused a lot of trouble for the singers I led and the people I served.

    Bear in mind that the MM is a much more focused program of study than the BM. General theory and music history are really treated as secondary topics, and non-musical things (English, world history, philosophy) are gone. The emphasis is entirely on your chosen field, so you get a whole lot out of those two years.

    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I already had one Master's degree when I approached college-level music study. The school I attended said there was little point in getting an undergrad degree in music. They crafted a MA in education with majors in music ed, choral conducting, and organ. Whatever works best for you is what you should do. But, I would advise a broader base than just church music. It is always good to have something else to fall back on to earn a living when the church jobs are not available.
  • Yes, it is!
    As you have noted, in the past there were many who lacked PhDs or even MMs who rose to the very top ranks of the various niches of the musical world. Such people have become increasingly rare in today's world. Advanced degrees are pretty much de rigeuer for any who wish to become respected and 'successful' in their various fields. So, this really becomes a question of how really serious you are, and where you wish to advance in music - church music or any other. With formal study one acquires a breadth of knowledge and expertise that are rarely had by those who have experience but no formal training and tutelage by scholars who often, but not always, know and have deeper knowledge far, far more advanced than most can learn on their own. Submission to formal, systematic study and tutelage will have become a blessing that remains with you all of your life. You will be a colleague of your professors, a master or doctor of music, respected as such by your choirs, clergy and people - a dedicated and indeflectable act of love of musical lore and the God who gave it to us.

    One can live a monkly life of prayer, study, and work, but will not likely know the life of a true monk without having submitted to a superior and lived his days with other monks.

    Do you wan to be an amateur or the real thing?
    Thanked by 2Gamba CHGiffen
  • jcr
    Posts: 132
    It is rare for anyone to submit himself to the rigors of study that a degree program will. We will almost surely slight those things that seem to us extraneous or unpleasant to pursue. Such courses as "Research and Bibliography" or a "Seminar in Analysis" will give invaluable background to a musician. They build the scholarly side of us. In addition, the advanced work in applied study is always worthwhile. Again, the requirements will take us where we might otherwise never go. If you can arrange to do graduate study, by all means do it. It is worth a good deal of effort to obtain it.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • I’m currently doing mine and I think it’s going to be completely worth it.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    True story: When I was turned down by an MA program in liturgical music, which unbeknownst to me had a lefty musical/liturgical bent, almost immediately I was offered a job as a DM by a chant-oriented pastor. Best fit ever.

    But the MA would have been very helpful.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • davido
    Posts: 874
    I would echo those above that the musical rigor of an MM degree is very important to forming you as a professional musician.

    I would also caution you to approach the degree wisely from a financial perspective. DO NOT go into debt for the degree unless the career path the degree puts you into will pay off the debt in a very short time.
  • All I can add, which is an echo of the above, is that there were definitely important things worked into me in my MM. You are no longer a kid student; they treat you as a competent adult, no matter how young you are, and expect you to level up as a result. There are matters of technique that I never would have learned (or even been exposed to) and problems that I would now be ill-equipped to solve had I not had the exposure that I received during grad school. I'm very glad I went. Sometimes I long to do continued graduate study (and I'm not far from ND now, so it's not out of the realm of possibility).
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    MM in organ/sacred music here. If you want to do full-time, professional church music, the rigor of the program (as said above) is very important. Choose the program well!!! You want something hard. My MM fixed a lot of issues with my major instrument (organ) as well as offered me a lot of choral and collaborative music opportunities that I couldn't have gotten in undergrad (including a recording project with Naxos while I was in a choir, etc.) Plus, I met my wife there!

    I also think that most jobs will lowball you if you don't at least have an MM now. I think the calculus is totally different (and not good) for a DMA/Ph.D now. That is much harder to justify unless you are in academia (and one of my good friends who is a Renaissance musicologist will tell you that that is a more difficult proposition now than it was 10 years ago. The jobs just aren't there.)

    Anyhow, cheers, and try to get one of those nice programs where it's paid for!
  • I also think that most jobs will lowball you if you don't at least have an MM now.

    I can confirm this. I was once told outright that I was hired in at a higher level because of my MM. Oddly, this wasn't even for a music job, but I was still grateful for the degree. In that sense, it has literally paid for itself.
  • If you want to do full-time, professional church music, the rigor of the program (as said above) is very important.

    This is precisely why I'm applying for my M.M. in organ as a formerly little-league organist.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    As a practical matter, I'm certain my MM has opened quite a few doors for me and allowed me to earn more money than I would have otherwise. On the other hand, I strongly suggest only pursuing an MM that is cheap or free (assistantship, fellowship, scholarship, whatever).
  • I also think that most jobs will lowball you if you don't at least have an MM now. I think the calculus is totally different (and not good) for a DMA/Ph.D now. That is much harder to justify unless you are in academia (and one of my good friends who is a Renaissance musicologist will tell you that that is a more difficult proposition now than it was 10 years ago. The jobs just aren't there.)


    Don't forget, too, the relatively innovative and novel status of a DMA. The very existence of these degrees could turn out to have been an historical anomaly.

    The Master's, on the other hand, is quite ancient.
  • What was so odd about the DMA? I’m genuinely curious as I’ve not heard that before.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • davido
    Posts: 874
    Doctor of Musical Arts is a performance degree concocted so that MM music professors could get higher salaries and colleges could say they had a higher doctor to student ratio.

    Having one myself, I am very aware of it’s near uselessness.
    Thanked by 1SteveOttomanyi
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    davido, is this to say that everything substantive can be learned at the MM level, and the DMA is mostly a matter of repertoire?
  • davido
    Posts: 874
    No, that last post was a tad too jaded.
    A DMA grad can be considered the expert on music in his/her community. One has to pass comprehensive written and oral exams on not only ones own major instrument literature, but also on all of music theory and history and in addition to offering several solo recitals, one item must write a research document comprising original research.
    But it’s more geared toward academia.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    As are all non medical doctorates
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Not all non-medical doctorates are geared towards academia, especially in the sciences & engineering, as well as in the legal profession. Non-medical doctorates may be principally geared towards a research career, but that research (in the fields mentioned) is often conducted outside of academia.
  • tandrews
    Posts: 157
    The MM and DMA are certainly worthy it! I'm a survivor, and both of the degrees were very helpful with my knowledge of church music. Davido is accurate that the DMA is more academic, but there was still a lot to learn/relearn from the 5 years since I had gotten my MM. My MM focused more on church history, choir singing, and organ playing, and gave me a goal for what beautiful church music could sound like, but lacked some of the means to achieve it (it was only 2 years long). The DMA included much focus on conducting as well, including both conducting and organ recitals, but also filled the void for how to achieve that goal of beautiful church music. But I'm sure other MM programs are different and can address everything!

    Improvisation was only taught to me at the DMA level (maybe other MM programs are different), and I found that very necessary for my career as a church musician. At the DMA level our organ requirements were certainly less than our organ performance colleagues, but you were still working towards being a talented organist that any church would want playing for them. But really every aspect of my church musicianship was more deeply enriched at the DMA level compared to the MM level.

    The research document was actually a lot of fun once I found a topic I was passionate about (distant relative was also a church musician!). I'm still researching the topic outside of academia, and it's been a wonderful recording project during this joyful covid-tiiide.
  • There is often a lot of nonsense in graduate programs - that goes with the territory. (One of my favorites - I petitioned during my DMA to skip or test out of the "Intro to Graduate Studies" course because I'd already done something similar during my Masters. By the time I was denied it was my final semester, so I ended up "learning how to use the library and write a paper" in my final semester of academia!)

    But that doesn't mean there is no value. A Masters is definitely worthwhile, and helps bump you up from a basic musician to a professional. If for no other reason than being in contact with talented colleagues and good teachers in a more competitive environment and thus getting an idea of your own skill level and where you could improve. I often see people with undergrad degrees from schools where they were the only organist, or one of only a few, and thus have no frame of reference for their own skills and weaknesses.

    I learned a lot during Masters, and continued to learn during DMA - not just new repertoire, but improved technique. It was also only during DMA that I had significant conducting opportunities. It was all valuable.

    I will second others here, though, in saying DO NOT go heavily into debt for grad degrees in church music. It's not THAT worth it - you have to have a viable financial approach.

  • By the time I was denied it was my final semester, so I ended up "learning how to use the library and write a paper" in my final semester of academia!)


    One could make a reasonable argument that if a student needs to be told how to look up a book in a library by the time they are a graduate student, they are not suited for graduate studies at all...
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    University administrators can be a real pain in the ***. I was doing a newly devised MA in liturgy, part time. Between the course organizers, the Bishops' Conference, and the University, they managed to change the course plan in each of the four years I was studying, including depriving me of the most interesting topic, right at the end, in order to "Study how to study".
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    depends... its totally subjective.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    As I will point out again, when you get a music degree, get something else along with it. If the church job goes up in smoke, you still have another way to make a living.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    IMHO If you do any degree, you should do it for your personal growth as a musician, to give yourself the chance to challenge yourself and bring your abilities to the highest accomplishment. One can debate endlessly about what degrees are good for what employment etc.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Wade
    Posts: 15
    I completely agree with Gamba, it depends on your situation. For me, I would say it was absolutely worth it; but, I would add the caveat that I wish I could go back and do it differently. I was fortunate enough to graduate with a BM without debt, but my MM piled it on with out-of-state tuition. If I could do it again, I would move close to the school ahead of time to study with the teacher I was pursuing before beginning my MM to dodge the insane tuition.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Being rather cheap, I always look for the least costly option. There are a couple of very good two year state schools in my area that have excellent music programs. I took all of my basic courses, theory and such, at the two year school for half the cost of tuition at the four year colleges. Then transferred the credits.
  • I would suggest that the value would depend on the school. I personally know someone who was granted a DMA (mostly in organ performance) from a major state school—who had a very well regarded organ program—that had never played the organ prior to beginning the program, and couldn’t really play the organ at the end either.

    I know another who receives a MM in organ performance from a different state school with a highly regarded organ professor that did a final recital of freshman/sophomore undergrad and general church repertoire.

    On the other hand, I know many with both of those degrees that had a great academic experience, and we’re fine players.

    I think that in this age where organ programs have been under scrutiny and closing with alarming frequency, there has—in some places—been a desire to keep numbers up at whatever cost.

    I’ve also hired someone before that was one of the “old school”, didn’t have a ton of degrees musicians over a number of DMA applicants because they were a superior musician and had more practical experience. I’ve met many who think they are more entitled to a job because of academic qualifications, where I’m more interested in what they are actually capable of doing.