long years and sweet music
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    for that PIP who told me, long ago, that NO ONE over 35 should be in choir
    Fie upon thee! listen to this>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRLZYQbuD_Y
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen Carol
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    Many thanks for this, Mme.
    It's beautiful.

    The mode I melody, Chrste redemptor, the hymn at vespers of Christmas eve, is one of my favourites. It appears at no. 485 in The Hymnal 1940 with a translation of Jesu dulcedo cordium ('Jesu, Thou Joy of Loving Hearts'), which is yet another cento of Jesu dulcis memoria. The 1940's version of this tune is the slightly more elaborate Sarum one.

    Whoever told you that must have had very little experience.
    i can just imagine that the he or she who told you that spoke in a decidedly definitive and authoritative tone which presumed a non-existent expertise.
    I have known many people quite a bit over 35 who could sing as beautifully as some in their prime - including some professionals.

    I am 'a few' years over 35 and can sing as well as ever. The only toll age has taken on me is my ability to sing countertenor - that, and failing breath capacity. I've always been, and still am, adept at both tenor and bass, and used to sing countertenor as well - but the latter is gone now.

    I have had a number of people who were quite old who were the backbone of sections in some of my choirs. I must admit, though, that I have known of some few who should have stopped singing in choir (but not necessarily in the congregation) long, long ago. Then there are those, n'est ce pas?, who, though young and under 35, have no business being in choir.

    Then, there is that unusual class of persons whom one encounters only rarely, who really cannot sing but absolutely love being in a choir, become devoted to it, will do anything for it, and are never ever absent from rehearsals or masses. Most have to be weeded out with kindness. A few make no noise at all, do no harm, and are sometimes warmly tolerated.
    Thanked by 3mmeladirectress CHGiffen Carol
  • davido
    Posts: 873
    Beautiful singing on that video!

    I am wondering, did that PIP’s comment refer to sopranos singing renaissance polyphony?

    Good technique keeps us singing well into our later years. In the world of opera, we have this example from a 92 year old: https://youtu.be/ZF1y6Vk5bds
    Thanked by 4sdtalley3 Carol mmeladirectress M. Jackson Osborn
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    The most stunning example in the opera world was Alfredo Kraus, who sang professionally right until his death thanks to his absolutely exquisite technique, perhaps surpassing all his contemporaries in that regard.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    davido -
    that "PIP" was a male, who in fact was over 35 when he said it. He meant women, yes, and men also; polyphony, and chant also.

    thanks for your link (!!!) - I hope others will find and post similar. Personally I find each one of these very uplifting!
  • davido
    Posts: 873
    This is purely anecdotal, but the technique I’ve observed to suffer the most with age is straight tone soprano (in imitation of the Boychoir sound). It’s frequently easy for young women to do, but if it’s not informed by a lot of technique, begins to get unattractive in middle age.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    >> Good technique keeps us singing well into our later years
    what would be the easiest exercise for good technique?
    I sometimes get some push back from people who just think they can't maintain, or improve, after Year __, and wish I had just a first step exercise to recommend.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    One should sing as long as he can sing.
    And when he can sing no more he should sing in the shower.
    And when he can do that no more he must sing in his heart
    Thanked by 2mmeladirectress hilluminar
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    First step for everyone: falsetto exercise.
  • davido
    Posts: 873
    Since there are a large number of techniques necessary for fine singing, a variety of exercises are usually called for.
    However, most famous singing teachers are nearly unanimous in recommending running scales in order to train matching tone across vocal registers and breath control. Things like: 1234-5432-1234-5432-12345678-987654321.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Ascending scales will never train the registers properly but will merely encourage taking too much vocal weight/thyro-arytenoid tension too high.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • davido
    Posts: 873
    That’s a huge blanket statement
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    It is physiologically impossible for you to not bring weight up when singing ascending scales unless the registers are already developed, in which case the exercise is worthless. Stanley and Filsell both advocate descending exercises for this reason, as they deny the singer the opportunity to strain the voice with too much weight.

    I don't give a lot of credence to "most famous singing teachers" since, in my experience, most teachers have grossly unscientific views of the voice, peddle wives' tales about things like vibrato, and are generally only interested in developing a very specific kind of sound. Critically analyzing each paedagogical tool is necessary in a profession with so much accreted unhelpful tradition.
  • davido
    Posts: 873
    What I’ve observed is that the analytical and the non-analytical teachers produce roughly equal results among students. The kids that could sing well get better at it, the kids who couldn’t, don’t.

    Also, what is a falsetto exercise is and how it’s good for everyone since women don’t have a falsetto register?
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Women absolutely have a falsetto register, and this has been anatomically proven time and time again.

    Good singing and registral balance can only be achieved if both the cryco-thyroid (what we might call "falsetto" or "head voice") and thyro-arytenoid ("chest voice") mechanisms are in use to a greater or lesser extent throughout the entire range. Especially for men, this upper register needs to be developed, exercised, and consciously brought lower and lower in the range until the break between registers is completely unnoticeable. The falsetto mechanism is what gives roundness and resonance to the voice (hence many male voices that are very shrill but don't carry well), the chest mechanism is what gives it "edge" and power, particularly in the low range.

    A proper understanding of registers was key to the best singing technique even when we were anatomically unaware of it like we are today, and the forcing of the chest register higher and higher throughout the 20th-century has resulted in much of the terrible singing we now see today.

    As for your point on the results you saw, I guess the teacher doesn't matter at all in that case as long as the student is motivated: a conclusion that I find indefensible.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,464
    When I was at a parish in Houston, we had a singer that had sung in the parish choir for 50 years. Just think about that. She had sung and knew practically every common anthem in the repertoire. I would often come up with some obscure piece, and as soon as we started rehearsing it, she would say, ah, yes, I know this...
    We presented he during her fiftieth year, a bronze pope Benedict medal and some gifts. There really ought to be a way to honor long time choir members.
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen sdtalley3 M. Jackson Osborn CharlesW Anna_Bendiksen
  • Anna_BendiksenAnna_Bendiksen
    Posts: 228
    @ghmus7, I knew someone like that in a choir in the Episcopal Church. Given the number of any hymn in the 1940 Hymnal, she could not only tell you the title, but also sing all the verses in the alto line.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
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