CA governor's coming edict regarding what we do.
  • jefe
    Posts: 200
    https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/CDPH-Guidance-for-the-Prevention-of-COVID-19-Transmission-for-Gatherings-10-09.aspx

    has some of the details.

    Here is what pertains to our Compline series: Indoors is already out. Now about Christmas Carols....

    7. Rules for Singing, Chanting, and Shouting at Outdoor Gatherings

    All people who are singing or chanting should wear a face covering at all times while singing or chanting, including anyone who is leading a song or chant. Because these activities pose a very high risk of COVID-19 transmission, face coverings are essential to reduce the spread of respiratory droplets and fine aerosols;
    People who are singing, shouting, chanting, or exercising are strongly encouraged to maintain physical distancing beyond 6 feet to further reduce risk.
    People who are singing or chanting are strongly encouraged to do so quietly (at or below the volume of a normal speaking voice).
    Instrumental music is allowed as long as the musicians maintain at least 6-foot physical distancing. Musicians must be from one of the three households. Playing of wind instruments (any instrument played by the mouth, such as a trumpet or clarinet) is strongly discouraged.

    jefe
  • So when is somebody going to take Newsom to court?
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Ken of Sarum
  • If I read the Guidance correctly, it applies to "private gatherings" which are limited to 3 or fewer households. It is deeply prescriptive with regard to private behavior, but doesn't appear to address public worship services.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • davido
    Posts: 506
    You Californians need to sue this guy. In Florida they hardly wear masks anymore.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Ken of Sarum
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,699
    And daily death rates in Florida compared with California?
    Well over three times higher currently - Consequence?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,146
    And daily death rates in Florida compared with California?
    Well over three times higher currently - Consequence?


    Are Florida, and California really comparable? Florida is known jokingly as a retirement home, as for California can the State Government count?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,358
    Unlike the federal government, state governments fundamentally have police power in the US.
    Thanked by 1Arthur Connick
  • davido
    Posts: 506
    When they ignore the science it’s about power not health. See this re wind instruments: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/orchestras-music-coronavirus
    Thanked by 1jefe
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,127
    I live in south Florida ( Palm Beach county) and our positivity rate is 2.7%. We wear masks and we are singing polyphony at Mass. Florida is not the hotspot everyone thinks it is.
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins jefe
  • jefe
    Posts: 200
    Arthur,
    Public gatherings, such as a church service have already been heavily curtailed with a lot of nonsensical rules and regulations. Singing of any kind, i.e. hymns or Psalms, or chanting have been banned altogether for months. Our organist plays a prelude and a postlude but no hymns. The one crack in the purely political bandwagon is that the State of CA did not originally restrict instrumental music. For 6 months now, a trio or quartet of horns (French horns and me on bass trombone as a faux bass horn); a flute player; and an Native American flute virtuoso in our midst @ Holy Trinity Episcopal Church tradeoff weekly playing some of the joints and Eucharist.

    This new Newsom edict disembowels virtually everything i love and do.

    In the 11th hour of my lifetime, the hours are clicking by one at a time in a slow, inexorable, poco a poco accelerando e diminuendo a niente.

    I simply hope there is something left before i am not.

    Yesterday, I received this timely devotional by Alistair Begg from a friend, John Luther, a wonderful composer/keyboardist/countertenor/choir director, and devoted Christian:

    Songs from God

    God, my Maker, who gives songs in the night.

    Job 35:10

    Any man can sing during the day. When the cup is full, man draws
    inspiration from it. When money is in plentiful supply, any man can
    praise the God who provides an abundant harvest or sends home a loaded
    ship. It is easy enough for a tuneful harp to whisper music when the
    winds blow; the difficulty is for music to carry when no wind is
    stirring. It is easy to sing when we can read the notes by daylight;
    but it takes a skillful singer whose song springs forth when there is
    not a ray of light to read by. No man can make a song in the night by
    himself; he may attempt it, but he will find that a song in the night
    must be divinely inspired.

    Let everything go well, then I can weave songs, fashioning them from
    the flowers that grow upon my path; but put me in a desert, where no
    green thing grows, and with what shall I frame a hymn of praise to
    God? How shall a mortal man make a crown for the Lord without jewels?
    Let this voice be clear and this body full of health, and I can sing
    God's praise: Silence my tongue, put me on a bed of suffering, and how
    will I then chant God's high praises, unless He Himself provides the
    song? No, it is not in man's power to sing when everything is against
    him, unless an altar-coal shall touch his lip.

    It was a divine song from Habakkuk that filled the night when he sang,
    “Though the fig tree should not blossom, nor fruit be on the vines,
    the produce of the olive fail and the fields yield no food, the flock
    be cut off from the fold and there be no herd in the stalls, yet I
    will rejoice in the LORD; I will take joy in the God of my
    salvation.”1 So, since our Maker gives “songs in the night,” let us
    wait upon Him for the music. Chief musician, let us not remain
    songless because we face affliction, but tune our lips to the melody
    of thanksgiving.

    1) Habakkuk 3:17-18
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Like I expressed in my original assessment, this is a demonic influence, but allowed by God.
  • LarsLars
    Posts: 59
    Sweden still exists.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,146
    When they ignore the science it’s about power not health. See this re wind instruments: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/orchestras-music-coronavirus


    @davido There is no such thing as 'The Science', we have a handful of laws and a few theories. The main thing is the scientific method, but this in all but a few cases is meaningless. I can easily design an experiment to show the harmlessness of singing in Covidtide. I can then go on and design an experiment that shows that singing is risky. Just because an experiment shows something as a result does not really tell us much. In most cases we learn more when an experiment fails, in this case we need to ask questions, we need to think, our understanding is challenged.

    Just because we design an experiment that will show that what we understand can be shown by experiment does not tell us much. Is our experiment well designed? Can it detect the possible differences? Can we test our experiment?
    Thanked by 2Lars Elmar
  • Carol
    Posts: 690
    jefe, take heart, we need to pray for one another to withstand these trying times. These Scripture passages sting me because my mother who used to sing to the Lord so often and so beautifully has become silent and "lies in a bed of suffering" not from covid, but from old age.
  • One may thumb his or her nose at 'The Science' and hold its conclusions in derision, but one cannot ignore the nearly a million hundreds of thousands of deaths in the US alone, not to mention the rest of the world. This is no sniveling matter. The Chinese Virus even caught up with our uncouth, unlettered, and boorish 'president' (who courts the same sort of people who brought Hitler to power), who scoffed at it for months. Precautions are necessary. They are neither evil nor the work of the devil. They are the responses of the wise.

    Every day we read of yet more well known personages who thought the threat wasn't real until he and she died of it. Every day we read of various sorts of ill-judged and defiant gatherings of a few or hundreds of people, many if not most of whose attendees 'got it', many of whom died of it. The White House, it seems, is an incubator of this dread scourge and working there is to take one's life into one's hands.

    I play for the Saturday anticipated mass at Walsingham, which at this time has been reserved for those who are sixty-five or older. They wear masks and sit three feet apart in every other pew. They do not at this time sing, but I play voluntaries on the organ. Since I play for this mass I have, due to the virus, stopped attending high mass on Sunday mornings. I do, though, watch it live streamed and notice that it is very well attended, packed, and few if any masks. I consider such tempting (even daring) of fate the height of irresponsibility. Though the people do not sing at this mass at this time, excellent music is still provided by the cathedral choir, and the sanctuary has a full complement of personnel for high mass.

    One may scoff at 'The Science' all one wishes. But it takes some gargantuan degree of denial, even of callousness, not to be convinced by millions of worldwide deaths. Scoffing and poo-pooing end at the bedsides of those hundreds of thousands fighting for their lives in hospital - and at the graves of those who didn't make it.
  • It's fine to be frustrated at the virus. It has mostly made irrelevant this entire year of my "education", where I will get far less than my tuition's worth of instruction, and stunted my professional and spiritual development. I would go so far as to say that one could reasonably be frustrated by the haphazard way in which public health measures have been enacted and the confusing, often contradictory messages of some health officials. I know I have been.

    However, we must distance ourselves from those feelings when it is time to appraise the measures which are preventing a total breakdown of the healthcare system. Tossing out what is scientifically proven to work by calling into question the very scientific method is exactly the kind of backwards anti-scientific thinking that anti-Catholics love to claim is endemic. We shouldn't let those charges become validated.
  • LarsLars
    Posts: 59
    @M. Jackson Osborn re: million deaths in the US - I'm not sure if its a typo, if not then your numbers are way off. The WHO has a million deaths of corona globally, pretty much the exact same number as every year dying from the flu. Except that this year there were no flu deaths recorded, so figure this one out for yourself. If an obese 70+ year-old Trump, who eats junk food daily and has not exercised in three decades, survived this thing - you will too.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,699
    So far this year in Texas the virus has killed 17,582 people compared with the 198,000 likely to die over a full year of other causes. A pandemic like the 14c Black Death would have killed maybe 15,000,000, so it's not as bad as that by three orders of magnitude, but it is still approaching 10% of deaths which could have been delayed.
    And we still have no idea about the long term impact on health. My 50 year old niece caught it in March, and is still suffering seriously debilitating inflamation of the lungs.
    @Lars - but I don't have a dedicated personal medical team. OTOH at 82 I have a 10% chance of dying in any year, it's only doubled that, and I ought to be prepared.
  • Comparing the flu to the Chinese Virus is rather like likening a crossbow or a trebuchet to a cruise missile. This virus is far more contagious than the flu, far more deadly, and far more cruel in its lasting and permanent respiratory, emotional, or mental effects on large numbers of its victims. My numbers may be off a little bit, but quibbling over numbers in straights such as this one is not just petty - it is a denial of the gravity of our predicament. (Just how many do you propose should have died for their lives to have mattered? - that could have been spared through smart precautions?) Thanks for your assurance that I would survive this virus. However, I don't want to 'survive' it (with the likely permanent respiratory and/or mental damage) - I want to take every precaution against getting it - or, heaven forbid, passing it on to others.
    Thanked by 2PaxMelodious Elmar
  • TCJ
    Posts: 775
    To multiply the deaths in the U.S. by five isn't "a little off". To point out such a major error in numbers isn't petty either because there is a huge difference between the numbers.
  • LarsLars
    Posts: 59
    It's pointless arguing about this, all I can say is if you're scared stay at home, no one has any right to tell me how I should live my life. This mammy government nonsense disgusts me to say the least.

    Fr. Altier: Coronavirus

    https://youtu.be/lXVY6rpwtfA
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,691
    That video with Fr. Altier is an abuse of his role as a priest. He starts out by talking about his duty to preach -- but what he is preaching is not the Gospel of Christ. He preaches a theory about the origin of the coronavirus, a topic on which he has no particular authority or competence to speak. He should cut it out and leave the topic to lay people.
  • Christians have lacked easy public access to worship in many times and places. Even each of us individually may end up without the sacraments or companions to pray with temporarily or permanently. It's probably beneficial to have a backup plan (spiritually speaking). How will you carry on being a Christian with your whole heart and whole soul, if you can't see a priest, can't go to a church, or can't worship in a group. I mean concretely, have you practiced? I possibly have an overactive imagination, but I think it's actually worth concretely organizing and practicing, like an early missionary preparing for martyrdom before heading into distant pagan lands.
    Thanked by 1PaxMelodious
  • Public gatherings, such as a church service have already been heavily curtailed with a lot of nonsensical rules and regulations.


    My favorite was NYC's relatively recent proclamation that permitted different numbers of people for funerals and weddings. Either XX number of people is safe or it isn't... changing the number based on the [religious] function [in the same sanctuary] is purely asinine.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,791
    PLEASE SINK THIS THREAD
  • It's pointless arguing about this, all I can say is if you're scared stay at home, no one has any right to tell me how I should live my life. This mammy government nonsense disgusts me to say the least.


    To the contrary, we have an obligation to each other in a time like this -- especially to those who cannot, for whatever reason, stay at home. (As a teacher in a school that is open in-person and who needs the money from that work, that includes me.) The rising case numbers indicate that we, as a society, aren't doing what needs to be done. It is the government's obligation to step in then.

    That doesn't mean the government has perfect judgment; obviously, it doesn't and we can and should speak up when we think they overstep. But as long as stuff like this happens, the government's going to look at religious gatherings askance.
  • Tim -

    In every single state and country where the virus is tracked, we have seen cases/deaths/hospitalizations go up, and go down, and sometimes back up again and down again. The one constant I have seen is politicians claiming direct responsibility for that curve, at every data point along the way, due to whatever policy they've decided on. Rising case numbers may simply imply that we are not in control of the virus with the limited means at our disposal - not that we aren't doing enough.

    That's not to say nothing should be done, or that we can't have any effect on things. But a little humility on the government's part might help their credibility. There is a basic correlation/causation dilemma that many on various sides of this issue like to ignore. The virus goes up and down, and we run around implementing all kinds of policies at the same time, and revoking them, and re-instating them, and declaring colored threat levels, and so we must be directly in charge of that fluctuation...and so the only possible explanation when it's not going well is that we aren't doing enough.

    It's interesting how the illusion that we are completely in control of nature creates such stress and fear and vicious anger within the populace.
    Thanked by 2mattebery tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,073
    even caught up with our uncouth and boorish 'president'


    Show me on the dolly where it hurts, pal.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    is purely asinine.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • We are in this situation because we are a post-Christian culture. If you die and that's it, death must be prevented at all costs. And that's what we're seeing, even from our bishops.

    Discussing this may or may not be therapeutic. But the bishops won't act to preserve freedom of worship, and most governors don't care.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,366
    First they appropriate Pepe, now they want to take away Culture of Death.
  • davido
    Posts: 506
    All I’m saying is, for a faith that originated with a guy who touched lepers, all this socialist distancing seems a little foreign.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Jeffrey Quick
  • As much as I like to gripe, I feel that we should be careful with saying "the bishops". There has been a broad range of response around the country and world. In Minnesota, for example, the bishops defied the governor's order to shut down worship.

    I realize I am in one of the more open dioceses, and serve with the first US bishop to reinstate the Sunday Mass obligation, and many of you are going through much worse and more dispiriting situations - so I'm not trying to be preachy.
  • We are in this situation because we are a post-Christian culture. If you die and that's it, death must be prevented at all costs.


    Exactly correct.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • NO politician, (AND SINCE I LIVE IN CALIFORNIA - NO GOVENOR), government, state, or anyone or anything will or has the right and authority to prevent me from my right to worship of GOD! I will do so in any manner I think best for my soul, with every fiber of my being even to my last moments on earth. And if I should become ill with whatever, I will do my best to fight, get well and continue my worship, praise and adoration of my Lord Jesus the Christ; including through art and music.

    And since I am commanded by Christ to love my neighbor as myself, I will use whatever logical, rational and reasonable mean necessary to quarantine myself safely so as to do no harm to others.

    However, I will make these choices for myself, for my own good and for the well being of those around me based on the information and research at hand. NO one has the authority to choose for me and or against my will. Neither will anyone force me through the passing of any edict to do otherwise and NO one will close my place of worship for it is the hospital of and for my eternal soul.

    Finally, I am guaranteed that this right from GOD will be upheld in law and promised in the Constitution of the United States of America for which thousands bled and died for and for my GOD given rights. GOD is the only being that has my total trust and GOD will care for me. "Though He slay me, yet shall I trust in HIM." I have not forgotten that GOD is absolute over all things; even illnesses. He is not the GOD of death but life.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Ken

    Thank you. Well put.
  • Well, your bishop, whom you are obedient to, can close your place of worship for the common good...
  • VioletThread - Not my church! We are an independent autonomous monastic tiny chapel. We foresaw problems with bishops long ago and decided that no bishop would have reign over us except Christ. We are a collection of Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox living in community. Besides, all true Christians must be obedient to GOD alone above all! History and the Bible teaches that no one, cleric, pope, bishop, priest, deacon or in fact any human is perfect except Jesus.

    There are eight of us, one retired bishop, a retired priest and six retired brothers. We only do Prime at 6am, Morning Prayer at 10am, Evensong and Benediction at 4:00pm on Sundays and Compline at 8pm. All chanted. If a member wants communion, he goes to the church of his choice. We rehearse daily too. We feed the hungry, cloth those that are in want, visit the sick and if in need, provide limited shelter.

    We are all over 60 years of age. We do sacred calligraphy, stain glass, make icons, carve wood crosses, crucifixes and statues, make incense, gardening and bee keeping / honey harvesting and most of all - we study and practice sacred classical music (chant and polyphony). We are too busy to close or be cloistered. hahaha

    Beside, a lesson can be learned from a congregation in France who are on youtube. Their bishop closed their church and even bricked up the doors. They took matters in their own hands for they believed that closing their church was immoral and evil. Whether right or wrong, this is our beliefs. In my opinion, any bishop that is more concerned with the body than the soul is suspect.

    The Covid-19 virus has been enormously over exaggerated in relation to other Covid viruses. It is primarily dangerous to adults with compromised immunities and illnesses. Less than a tenth of one percent of children worldwide are negatively affected. Other flus and flu viruses have harmed and killed vastly more than Covid-19. And regarding masks, if they are so effective then why haven't people been wearing them since the 1920s and 30s during flu seasons? If masks and distancing helps you feel better about all this, well wear them and do the distance. But isn't it better to keep in mind what our parents and grandparents religiously told us to do - clean, clean, clean. Have we not learned our lessons from history and plagues? I do not mean to diminish the matter but hopefully help us to see that Covid -19 has been used to control and manipulate. Those that are sick should be hospitalized and or at home. Isn't that reasonable? The healthy should not be quarantined neither the economy of the world destroyed. "The healthy have no need of a physician" - Jesus.

    Let's be reasonable, thoughtful and rational with a good amount of common sense. Just because there is much sickness in a hospital, you don't use a flame thrower to burn the hospital down to kill all the sickness within. Take vitamin D3, zinc, your daily vitamins, and C, plenty of water and good healthy foods. Brush your teeth 4times a day and gargle with a mouthwash and warm salt water. Finally, perhaps all this is GOD's way of slowing us down, taking better care of ourselves and families and focus on HIM.

    I apologize for my long windedness but I just felt the need to get all this off my mind. Please forgive me.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw