Article about ugly liturgy as a feature, not a bug.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Every once in a while, Life Site News publishes something relevant to this forum. This morning it did so. The author (Joseph Shaw) responds to the claim by a Jesuit that ugly and scandalous liturgy should be the goal.

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/jesuit-calls-for-ugly-scandalous-liturgy?utm_source=top_news&utm_campaign=catholic

    Discuss.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,085
    Well, that's because beautiful liturgy is just a manifestation of white privilege, after all.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    .
  • doneill
    Posts: 207
    I would say that the washing of stinky feet, sweating blood, the sacrifice on the Cross, and the wounds are not ugly at all, but beautiful acts. I think he has a very narrow and misguided view of what beauty is.
    Thanked by 1JL
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    [Please note the absence of any purple in this post]

    At some level, isn't the Traditional Latin Mass scandalous to a world which expects everyone to "take a knee" to the latest fads? Isn't following careful rubrics scandalous? Surely feeding others by putting food directly into their mouths (instead of various other options) shocking. Women who wear head coverings and other potentially modest clothing are greatly upsetting to the world, especially in our day.

    A liturgy which doesn't proclaim "I'm ok., you're ok., and sin's ok" has the real potential to be ugly, at least as the world measures ugliness, but the Traditional Latin Mass doesn't merely refuse to say that sin's ok., but rather repeatedly acknowledges the ugliness of sin.

    He doesn't intend the words the way I've used them, but isn't the Traditional Latin Mass exactly what this Jesuit needs to find?
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Chrism
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    This kind of smug non sequitur, argued in bad faith and not even making an inkling of sense, frankly doesn't even deserve comment. If Fr. Inczauskis wishes to make a legitimate argument, he is more than welcome to expect a real response.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Just to be clear, Sh ö nbergian, your "smug non sequitur" is aimed at Fr. Inczauskis?

    I'm a bit slow on the uptake. What step am I missing?
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Yes, Chris, and I agree with your above argument. My apologies if I came across as attacking your post.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Repeating myself, for Chris's benefit:

    ä = ä
    ö = ö
    ü = ü
    Ä = Ä
    Ö = Ö
    Ü = Ü
    <font color=purple> PURPLE TEXT </font> = PURPLE TEXT



    Thanked by 2tomjaw Richard R.
  • Nathan_the_Organist
    Posts: 440
    I think I see where has is trying to go: the Mass is the same sacrifice as as the cross, a very ugly way to die, so let's remind people of this ugliness.

    But it is a simplistic conclusion that since Jesus' death was ugly, the mass should be ugly. He forgets the Resurrection through which we have the ability to spread the beauty of God. Yes, the mass is the same sacrifice as the cross, but it is the bloodless sacrifice through which we receive Christ who is goodness, beauty, and truth. The Mass should therefore reflect the beauty that we are privileged to receive, not the ugliness from which Christ came to save mankind.
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 263
    @Chris Garton-Zavesky

    Why is it ok then, for muslim women to wear a hijab/burka/etc, but heaven forbid a woman wants to show respect in the presence of God, wear a veil?
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    I'll bite - the ugliness and brutality of Jesus's crucifixion being compared to such practices as sacro-pop, an army of EMHCs at the tiniest Mass, or the priest reading out sports scores during the Mass - and trying to draw some kind of moral equivalence - is idiotic at best and downright offensive at worst. I doubt he's in favour of re-enacting Jesus sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane or being nailed to the cross during the Mass, after all.
    Thanked by 1JL
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    [purple] The actual crucifixion wasn't made for people with short attention spans? [off]
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    How Jesuitical!
    Just what one would expect of many contemporary Jesuits.
    How far they have fallen - I believe that I have read, on this very Forum, that in the XVIIIth century and earlier their liturgy and music were exemplary.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores Schönbergian
  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    Let's emphasize the stink, rather than the wash
    Let's emphasize the anxiety, rather than the fiat
    Let's emphasize the violence, rather than the meekness and humility
    Let's emphasize the death, rather than the self-sacrifice unto death
    Let's emphasize the empty holes, rather than the glorification
    Let's emphasize the ugly of the world, rather than the beauty that transcends and conquers it.

    Yes, let's emphasize the sin, rather than the redemption of the sinner.

    That's what people need.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores irishtenor
  • francis
    Posts: 10,826
    And THIS is why God is ending this nonsense. Sin is one thing, but mockery on top of sin is another... especially about the very heart of the Catholic Faith.

    6And let him that is instructed in the word communicate to him that instructeth him, in all good things. 7Be not deceived: God is not mocked. 8For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit of the spirit shall reap life everlasting. 9And in doing good, let us not fail. For in due time we shall reap, not failing. 10Therefore, whilst we have time, let us work good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
    Galatians 6:6—10
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    So far, 17 posts utterly wasted on a Jesuit's "thoughts."
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. (Jn. 6:56 RSV)

    Our priest's sermon at a funeral last week used this as its main theme. It was intended, I think, to confront the largely detached vaguely 'christian' congregation with the centrality of this ideafact in Catholic life, and in the life of the deceased. Some in the congregation may well have been uneasy about that idea; Good!
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    Are you sure the original article wasn't just written as a provocative academic exercise, like when your professor asks you to argue the opposite of common thought on some subject just to make you think about things in a different way?
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Catherine,

    Given that it was a Tweet from a Jesuit which prompted the reaction, no, I'm not sure that it was "written as a provocative academic exercise". On the other hand, Jesuits are known for a kind of intellectual pride and a dull liturgical sense ... which leads to the simile, 'As lost as a Jesuit in Holy Week'.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,100
    >> Jesuits are known for a kind of intellectual pride and a dull liturgical sense ...

    I never heard that.
    But doesn’t sound like a skill set for a Pope does it.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Madame,

    It should be noted that there have been some truly humble, holy, bright Jesuits.

    Do you mean that it doesn't sound like ideal training for a pope, or it doesn't sound like anyone so much as our present pope?
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 805
    As much as I'd love to hate on the Jesuits for what's been coming from James Martin and the like, we did have a Jesuit ordained to the Subdiaconate by a Jesuit bishop last year in the old rite at the Toronto Oratory. I served at that Mass which was supremely beautiful. I'd been praying for a while to have a Pontifical Solemn Mass at the Oratory for a while so it was wonderful to finally see it come to fruition.

    You can read about it here.
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn Chris Garton-Zavesky CHGiffen sdtalley3
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