Pre-55 rites, or, the TLM if De Musica Sacra had never been issued
  • Chrism
    Posts: 871
    Where authorization has been given to celebrate extraordinary form Masses or Offices according to the pre-1955 rites, presumably the 1955-1962 musical legislation (esp. De Musica Sacra and Musicae sacrae) become optional as well.

    With these strictures temporarily inoperative, is there anything that you would want to try?
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    @Chrism

    This is interesting, but the focus of the places taking up pre-55 seems to be on Holy week, the Calendar changes (Octaves etc. and use of the Feast of the Solemnity of St. Joseph) and music (splitting the Sanctus) seem to be forgotten.

    Anyway many places had been celebrating the pre-1955 before, so you will find previous musical practice, see http://schola-sainte-cecile.com. The Calendar is more complex as a calendar needs to be made for each place with usually some compromise needed.
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  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    Splitting the Sanctus is interesting.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,816
    We split the Sanctus for Solemn Mass. Usually polyphonic treatment.
    Thanked by 1Patricia Cecilia
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Splitting the Sanctus is normal for Polyphony (usually it's the only way). I have occasionally split the Sanctus in Chant at E.F. Masses, particularly if we're singing something like the DuMont Masses. I have also played (or improvised) elevation toccatas after the consecration.

    The un-split Sanctus is in a way the first nail in the coffin for the Old Ways. First it's Sanctus-Benedictus as a unit, then it's the clara voce Canon, then it's the congregational Sanctus as a "Eucharistic Acclamation", and now all polyphonic Sancti are unusable in the standard Mass (O.F.). "Treasure of inestimable value"? Yeah, and I'm the Duke of Edinburgh.

    I'm of the opinion that, apart from chant scholarship, which is more a branch of musicology than liturgics, there have been no good fruits of the Liturgical Movement since the time of Pius XI, maybe even Benedict XV. Certainly by the time Pacelli came on the scene the Liturgical Movement had gone off the rails, and ceased to be about forming the people in the spirit of the liturgy, and more about re-(or perhaps, de-)forming the liturgy in the spirit of the age.

    Sorry, I'm ranting. I'll shut up now.
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Salieri,

    By "un-split Sanctus", do you mean the current practice (in the OF) of having a single, un-divide-able piece for Congregational Singing? I've only ever split the Gregorian Chant Sanctus from its Benedictus once, and the reason for the change is too complicated to explain.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Un-split Sanctus = Sanctus-Benedictus as a single unit. I know that the chant Sancti became shorter with the coming of the Solesmes or Vatican Edition methods and the abandonment of mensuralism, but there is something nice about the division and having Benedictus after the consecration.

    Hmmm. It seems that if tradition held out, and there was the option of singing the Benedictus (or even O Salutaris, or Ave Verum, or Pie Jesu) after the consecration, there would have been a "memorial acclamation" already in place. But, silly me, surely its better to have the Sanctus-Benedictus before the Canon, forbid the Elevation Motets, and insert three new texts after the consecration without any direction about which one is to be used when. Ah, liturgical experts, they remove the thing that was always* there, then invent something else to fill the vacuum left by the thing that they removed. I love committees.

    * Yeah, I know it wasn't always there in the strict sense, but neither were many things. It was there before the time of the Reformation and before Trent codified the Missal or the Roman Curia, so as far as liturgical custom (law) is concerned, it was "always there".
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    I've been to Low Masses where DMS was ignored and there was much more extensive use of the organ; it was played throughout Mass except the sermon, Consecration, and Confiteor before Communion. One of my teachers, speaking from personal experience, told me that in the "old days" it was usually either absolute silence or nearly continuous music during Mass. As far as High Mass, I think the only differences are that the organ may be played during the Consecration and the final blessing, the Benedicamus replaces the Ite whenever the Gloria is omitted, and, as already noted, the Gregorian Benedictus is delayed until after the Elevation. At a Sung Mass (not Solemn), the gradual can be started while the celebrant reads the epistle instead of chanting it. Am I forgetting anything?
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Madorganist,

    This caught my eye
    that the organ may be played during the Consecration


    I know no where where this happens, or is tolerated. (I've seen it happen once when two people got their wires badly crossed.)
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    ad elevationem Sanctissimi Sacramenti pulsatur organum graviori et dulciori sono : et post elevationem poterit immediate motettum aliquod opportunum cantari (Caeremoniale Episcoporum)
    See also the Catholic Encyclopedia:
    If the organ is played during the Elevation, it should be in softer tones; but it would seem that absolute silence is most fitting for this august moment. The same may be said about the act of Benediction with the Blessed Sacrament.
  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    During the lock-down, or confinement as you might call it, we watched Mass from Griciliano, the ICKSP seminary. The Mass was 100% Gregorian and the Sanctus was split with the Benedictus sung after the Elevation.
    I found it quite perturbing but I guess it's a question of habit. Also, as it was Mass I, the Sanctus is quite short and there was an organ fill-in up until the Elevation.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    @Salieri
    Hmmm. It seems that if tradition held out, and there was the option of singing the Benedictus (or even O Salutaris, or Ave Verum, or Pie Jesu)

    http://schola-sainte-cecile.com Has been singing the O Salutaris after the Elevation, in the melody as used for the Office of that day. It is very nice, but I thought this was banned, anyway they also sang a Sequence during Ascension from a Paris Missal alternating between Choir and Organ!

    We split the Gregorian Sanctus, but we a following a calendar pre-1955...
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    I thought this was banned
    By whom? See TLS 8:
    it is permissible, according to the custom of the Roman Church, to sing a motet to the Blessed Sacrament after the Benedictus in a solemn Mass.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    It strikes me there is confusion in this discussion about music at the elevation. As there seems to be in the sources.
    We should not confuse the Consecration (institution narrative), where important words are being spoken, distincte, reverenter et secrete profert verba consecrationis super Hostiam, and the elevation of the Host, which is an opportunty for adoration by the congregation. There is also the act of consecration of the Precious Blood, and the elevation of the chalice, which seems never to be clearly mentioned in comments about music.
    Do many chant scores show a gap in the Sanctus-Benedictus? My knowledge is very limited, perhaps there are organ scores to provide evidence. The one reasonably clear example I have seen is in the Messe Grecque for St Denis. Here the Greek* is given in clear detail, but if the Mass is sung in Latin there is no such information.
    (*The end of the Sanctus is given to choir, the rest of the page to the organ).
    It is clear that the O Salutaris .. is sung (by the organ!, in Greek!) "At the Elevation ..." and that "we resume the angelic hymn" after the Elevation; that is Ω Σωτηρια/O Salutaris is a form of acclamation during the elevation. It is not explcit, whether this is just the elevation of the Host, or repeated for the Blood, I presume that Paris did not envisage a single elevation of both species at this point.
    I suppose that because this is a singular liturgy, it is conservative, and the form, including Ω Σωτηρια has pedigree before the 17th century. Anybody point to an authoritative source?
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    I can't imagine that the Elevation of the Host alone, exclusive of the words of Consecration, would last long enough for a motet. Perhaps the 1940 video narrated by Fulton Sheen is informative for the liturgical praxis in that era:
    https://youtu.be/DUEODk9Tvs0?t=3494
    An argument could be made that it only represents what was normative in Chicago, not necessarily elsewhere, but the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Ceremoniale, Predmore, Terry, and others all assume that the organ is played at the Elevation.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    madorganist - that is exactly what my picture shows, solo organ - in this case playing a monophonic 'chant' of 40-50 notes, no indication of tempo of course. That printing was in 1779 but I think it was the same in 1658. The 'text' of the 'chant' is Ω Σωτηρια/O Salutaris ... which would preclude it being used again after the Benedictus, I imagine.
    As to duration of the elevation, I recall reading that Padre Pio (Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, 1887-1968) was known for extending it to 15 minutes.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    It's hard to interpret the rubrics of some nonconsecutive pages, so I had to Google Messe Greque de St Denis.

    In this book one sees alternatim "Ch." & "Org." (also "1. Ch" "2. Ch.") but note that a singer who had to pen in a transliteration doesn't follow the printed scheme and apparently sat out Sanctus 1 & 3 but then sang Hosanna-O Salutaris-Benedictus as well as all 3 Agnus.

    Here's what was perhaps a concert solution: sung ('on the book'?) and then played. Unless Couperin's Élevation is here subbing for the Benedictus :-0
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  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    We are going to sing Delibes' missa brevis this evening and I noticed that it doesn't even have a Benedictus. It simply stops after the first hosanna in excelsis. On youtube recordings I've heard the choir add the Benedictus from Sanctus VIII and then reprise the Hosanna from the first part. That's what we will do.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Jeffrey Quick
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    It doesn't affect me, but were any changes required by Musicae sacrae or De musica sacra?
    Musicae sacrae promotes Gregorian chant, and tries to cut back on existing concessions for other music :-
    MS 46. We are not unaware that, for serious reasons, some quite definite exceptions have been conceded by the Apostolic See. We do not want these exceptions extended or propagated more widely, nor do We wish to have them transferred to other places without due permission of the Holy See. Furthermore, even where it is licit to use these exemptions, local Ordinaries and the other pastors should take great care that the faithful from their earliest years should learn at least the easier and more frequently used Gregorian melodies, and should know how to employ them in the sacred liturgical rites, so that in this way also the unity and the universality of the Church may shine forth more powerfully every day.

    47. Where, according to old or immemorial custom, some popular hymns are sung in the language of the people after the sacred words of the liturgy have been sung in Latin during the solemn Eucharistic sacrifice, local Ordinaries can allow this to be done "if, in the light of the circumstances of the locality and the people, they believe that (custom) cannot prudently be removed."[21] The law by which it is forbidden to sing the liturgical words themselves in the language of the people remains in force, according to what has been said.
    Did any local Ordinaries actually forbid the use of any musical indult between 1955 and 1962?
    De musica sacra claims to do no more than consolidate :-

    it seems opportune that the principal sections on sacred liturgy and sacred music and their pastoral efficacy be taken from these aforementioned documents and set down concisely in one special Instruction,
    Thanked by 1francis
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    DMS says in two places (14 & 27) that "Between the Consecration, and the Pater noster a holy silence is fitting," and also that "During the Consecration, the singing must stop, and there should be no playing of instruments; if this has been the custom, it should be discontinued." That does mark a change from the previous legislation as quoted above in the CE and TLS. This is the only recording I know of the preconciliar Solemn Papal Mass:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0IUN-Qwe7I
    The instrumental music continues straight through the Consecration of the chalice - or maybe it's the other way around, considering the Pope didn't wait for the choir to sing the Hosanna before the Elevation. Is there any evidence of music (either instrumental or sung) accompanying the Elevation of the Host but not the Consecration itself, as some here seem to be speculating as the practice referred to in the Ceremoniale?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    The Papal Coronation Mass seems not to be governed by TLS !
    15. Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music, music with the accompaniment of the organ is also permitted.
    18. The sound of the organ as an accompaniment to the chant in preludes, interludes, and the like must be not only governed by the special nature of the instrument, but must participate in all the qualities proper to sacred music as above enumerated.
    22. ... According to the ecclesiastical prescriptions the Sanctus of the Mass should be over before the elevation, ...
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    So many rules, so little obedience!
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  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    I thought it was illicit to split a chant Sanctus.
    It's often pretty obnoxious to have to split a composed Sanctus, esp. in the cases of easy unison settings, where you're back in to sing 4 measures of music, and the whole thing is shorter than the chant version.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Jeffrey Quick - not trying to quibble, but we need to clear about dates and rites.
    The OF rubrics seem not to envisage the possibilty of splitting. Of course the praying of the EP is aloud, by the priest, and music is never to obscure it.
    For the EF(1962) this applies :
    DMS (1958) 27. With regard to sung Masses, ...
    d. The Sanctus and the Benedictus, if chanted in Gregorian,
    must be sung without a break, otherwise the Benedictus is to be
    sung after the Consecration.
    e. All singing must cease during the Consecration and, where
    custom permits their use, the playing of the organ or any other
    musical instrument must also cease.
    f. After the Consecration, unless the Benedictus is still to be
    sung, devout silence is advised until the time of the Pater Noster.

    Of course this thread started with ¿what applies to TLM(1955)? We know DMS claims not to innovate but just set out the rules in one place. But until DMS the rules were about Solemn Mass, other Sung Masses were permitted by various indults, but the rubrics are, I suggest, unclear in some respects.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    if tradition held out, and there was the option of singing the Benedictus (or even O Salutaris, or Ave Verum, or Pie Jesu) after the consecration,


    In the Ordo Missae of a nationally-known priest based in Madison, there is to be SILENCIO!!! after the Consecration in the EF Mass. So yah, whatever.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    I believe the internationally known Fr.Z uses 1962, he used to work for PCED.
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