Ave Regina caelorum with Alleluia?
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    I have recently been given a 3part ARC BY Dufay, which finishes with an Alleluia. Can someone help me figure out the circumstances in which such a thing would be likely to occur, beyond the obvious situation of Septuagesima falling late enough?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    A wild guess: for the Ember Days between Pentecost and Trinity?
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Two more wild guesses: Perhaps the Rite(s) used during Dufay's lifetime in Brussels and Cambrai did not know the Regina Caeli; or perhaps it might have been used as a Magnificat or Benedictus Antiphon in the Office of that Rite. (Dufay, of course, lived before the Council of Trent, so the imposition of the Missal of the Roman Curia on the Latin Church hadn't happened yet, so who knows what local variants he had to work with.)
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 163
    My understanding is that the Ave Regina Caelorum was originally an antiphon for the Assumption (the text makes sense for this to be so), and so maybe when Dufay composed it, it was still used for the Assumption, and thus the Alleluia? Interesting question.
    Thanked by 4tomjaw CHGiffen tandrews CCooze
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Cantus ID: 001542
    Genre: A
    Full text:
    Ave regina caelorum ave domina angelorum salve radix sancta ex qua mundo lux est orta virgo gloriosa super omnes speciosa vale valde decora et pro nobis semper exora Christum alleluia
    Feast: Suff. Mariae
    And several other uses, particularly Assumption. And as a sequence for Sunday within the octave of Saint Edith (Sarum I imagine)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    The following is from 'Hymns of the Roman Liturgy, Connelly, 1954" and would have been the latest research at that time.

    John of Parma, in 1249, mentions these four antiphons in a letter he sent to the Friars Minor about the use ofthe Breviary ofAymo, and Pius V made their recita-
    tion obligatory.

    and
    Author. Unknown. It is a metrical adaptation of the antiphon: Ave regina caelorum, ave domina angelorum, salve radix sancta ex qua mundo lux est orta;
    gaude gloriosa, super omnes speciosa. Vale, valde decora, et pro nobis semper Christum exora.     (C£ Daniel, II, 319.)
    This antiphon seems to have been used in some places in the twelfth century as the antiphon for None on the feast of the Assumption. For this the titles given to our Lady are most appropriate, and the last lines, with their Vale and exora, peculiarly so. (Dom B. Capelle, in Les Questions Liturgiques et Paroissiales, March 1950, pp. 33-5). The Collect after the Ave regina suggests such a connection as, with memoriam agimus for festivitatem praevenimus, it is the same as the Post-Communion ofthe Vigil ofthe Assumption. The Ave was later put into its present form and used as one of the seasonal antiphons. It must be admitted that it is not so well suited to its season as the others are to theirs.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,801
    Chris might recall a two year old thread where we discussed this before.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Wikipedia sayeth:
    Du Fay died on 27 November 1474. He had requested that his motet Ave regina celorum be sung for him as he died, with pleas for mercy interpolated between verses of the antiphon, but time was insufficient for this to be arranged.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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