Victimae Paschali ending
  • ChapmanGonzalez
    Posts: 31
    In Worship IV, the Victimae ends with 'Amen, Alleluia." In my Solesmnes Liber Cantualis, the 'Amen, Alleluia' do not appear. We are using the Festival Alleluia by Chepponis immediately after the sequence. I think we should omit the 'Alleluia' at the end of the Victimae since we're singing a much bigger Alleluia setting. Any information about this will be greatly appreciated
  • m_r_taylor
    Posts: 326
    My instinct is to keep the alleluia. It's in other old copies. To me it it would feel incomplete without it, it's an indispensable part of the sequence itself.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    A Sequence is a special piece of music sung before the Gospel, So you would after the Epistle you would have the (depending on the day / Season) Gradual, then Alleluia then Sequence followed by the Gospel.

    It is suggested that originally it was an elaboration of the final melismatic chant of the Alleluia set to a new text (see the Laudes Crucis the sequence for the Holy Cross and compare with the Alleluia for that day).

    Now because the Sequence would take the place of the final Alleluia of the Proper Alleluia, it is normal to sing a simple Alleluia (when appropriate) after the Sequence, also because the Sequence is normally sung antiphonally you would also have an Amen.

    Whether it make sense to sing an Alleluia after the Sequence in the N.O. as they have messed around with the ancient arrangement is an interesting point.

    Also as far as I understand the L.C. is a hymn book with music that can be sung in non Liturgical places so in effect a book of Hymns. When a Sequence is sung as a hymn / motet it really does not make sense to sing the Alleluia, and the Amen.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 998
    Just follow the rubrics from GIRM (#64) and the chant books intended for the celebration of Mass:

    So, after the second reading:

    1. Sequence Victimae Paschali laudes (Graduale Romanum 198-199): there's no Amen, no Alleluia, as in the Ordo lectionum missae (p. 449)
    2. Alleluia Pascha nostrum (Graduale Romanum 197), or another Alleluia

    Take note that the order of the Sequence and Alleluia in the Graduale Romanum is reversed, because the rubric (GIRM #64) only changed in 2002. Also note that the Graduale Novum (I, 167), even though of recent date, doesn't follow the current rubrics twice. It has the Alleluia first, followed by the Sequence, which ends with Amen, Alleluia. Odd.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Graduale Simplex also omits Amen, Alleluia.
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 548
    On the other hand, the (American) English lectionary has “Amen. Alleluia.” at the end...
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,023
    In the OF, I have been known to attach the cantor/choir's introduction of the Mode VI Alleluia for the people to sing directly to the Sequence, after the Amen. Preserves the connection between the two.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • davido
    Posts: 944
    Another example of NO rubrics being so irrational that they can’t be parsed out.

    Makes one want to be a lib and just not follow them...
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Tomjaw makes the point that 'because they have messed with the historical order', the 'amen, alleluya' makes no sense in the NO. This is yet another example of how chic post-Vatican II liturgists (so-called) have taken it upon themselves to 'mess with' our liturgical heritage. It is unfortunate that on account of yet another of GIRM's chic modernisms the historical order has been stood on its head. If one must sing the sequence before the alleluya and verse, one should still sing the 'amen. alleluya' after it. At least GIRM does not require otherwise.

    In the Ordinariate Use we, of course, are not bound by these modern fads and continue to sing sequences where they historically belong, and add the 'amen. alleluya' which acclaims the gospel.

    Obedience to GIRM may require an out-of-place sequence, but it does not require the absence of the 'amen. alleluya' which is, as R.T. Taylor points out above, an integral part of the sequence.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    For whatever reason, the 1973 GR explicitly instructs to omit the Amen at the end of any sequence, and the Alleluia falls off Victimae Paschali with it. So its not because they have changed the order of Seq and AL.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 776
    The USCCB's very own web site includes "Amen. Alleluia.", though the new order (RP, Seq, Al) remains, http://usccb.org/bible/readings/041220.cfm. It seems this particular bit of modern liturgical fundamentalism has been quietly reconsidered. May it be a trend.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    these modern fads


    There are a LOT of them around.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    There are indeed!
    And let us pray that they are just that - passing fads.
    Perhaps (perhaps!), if the Church is lucky, another generation will take a frowning look back at how 'they' messed with the liturgy 'back then' and set things aright.

    P.S. - I'm not holding my breath.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
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