Musical Patchamamas
  • Funny how people got all riled up seeing Pope Francis at the Patchamama prayer service, what with all the worship of graven images of child sacrifice. Yet nothing is said against the idolatrous music happening in some Masses. Nay, rock and roll brings Vibrance to the community.
    So the rock mass I think is my musical patchamama. Why bring that into the church.
  • Continuousbass,

    I suppose your observation holds true in some places, but if you think there's nothing being said you've not been around these comment boards enough.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,792
    Wait, wait!! You didn't mention Polkamama Masses!
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • and Folkamama Masses!
    Thanked by 1cesarfranck
  • The other day I was thinking, does no one (ie regular parishioners) practice guarding of eyes, tongue, heart, the renunciation of sensual attachments and so on? I know a few people who do, off the top of my head: a couple seminarians, a third order Carmelite, a lady in Opus Dei...maybe those exercises are not supposed to be for regular folks?

    The rock Mass seems awkward just at this level: one is overstimulating the senses, just as one might at a bar or club, which may provide an endorphin rush and sense of excitement, but surely isn't very good for promoting chastity, meditation, contemplative prayer, self-denial and so on. Maybe it doesn't matter. But it seems quite an odd variant on Christian spirituality.

    The Pachamama events were a shock to me. My trust in the Church's human institutions was quite smashed by that. I spent years involved in paganism and occultism. It is not funny or cute. The consequences are terrifying and miserable, even if one merely gets involved with the best of intentions (ie not out of any malice), and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. To see the Pope mucking about with a pagan deity....I remain speechless. I love Jesus, and refuse to leave the Church, but it's definitely a very weird trip.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,520
    The rock Mass seems awkward just at this level: one is overstimulating the senses, just as one might at a bar or club, which may provide an endorphin rush and sense of excitement, but surely isn't very good for promoting chastity, meditation, contemplative prayer, self-denial and so on. Maybe it doesn't matter. But it seems quite an odd variant on Christian spirituality.
    (Emphasis added)
    In my experience (others may have a difference experience), the Novus Ordo Missae, which is the form of the Mass at which I assume Rock Masses are taking place, isn't good at fostering meditation or contemplative prayer, actually, in my experience, it isn't good at fostering personal prayer, period; what it is good at is fostering communal rote-recitation of liturgical texts--perhaps that was the intention of Bugnini & Co.--and these over-stimulating events, like Rock Masses, Polka Masses, LifeTeen Masses, etc., are an attempt to mask the banality and lack of mysticism with emotionalism. In fact, in my current job, with the current pastor, the Gregorian Chant, polyphony, and traditional hymnody that we sing has much the same effect---there are some days the ars celebrandi is so consistently bad that the chanted Gloria seems more out of place in the whole than does the improvised, wordy, rambling, 9 o'clock news "Prayer" of the Faithful.

    I don't know if the Rock Mass, LifeTeen Mass, etc., are 'the problem' or simply the symptom of the problem, namely, a liturgy that is too personal, completely filled with blah-blah, and easily devolves into the Fr. X. Show, because I am beginning to see the 'Gregorian Mass' as having the same propblems.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,197
    I think, Salieri, that much that gets blamed on the "Church" is actually based in cultural problems and deficiencies.
  • I don't mean to call the NO a pig, but I sometimes think that the application of chant and polyphony to it is much like the application of lipstick to that animal.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,197
    I like chant as well as anyone, but I also am aware it fell into disuse for centuries before the French reinstated it. How well they did that is open to question. Too much polyphony can get tedious, too. Aren't we fortunate to have centuries of good music we can use? I would rather dwell on the good we have, not what isn't going so well.
  • I sang a chant ordinary for an otherwise rock Mass once. That was kind of weird. I wouldn't do it again.

    But I think sometimes this problem that we always need to solve is not really solveable. That is, priests celebrating badly, congregants praying badly, musicians singing badly... none of these are fixed by giving them a new liturgy or new hymns or new interior decoration or more snacks or new fashions to wear. If prayer truly comes from the heart, that's God's work, not due to 'renewing' anything. Music or texts or dress can respect or disrespect the reverence due to God, but that's a different issue than 'we can make people holy if we just modify these details in the ritual'.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,792
    'we can make people holy if we just modify these details in the ritual'.


    DING DING DING!! Winner winner chicken dinner!!

    Cruising through the combox here before seeing your observation, I was thinking "Yah, it's the prevalence of sin...."....

    Ritual won't make anyone holy. Repentance could, if it's tried.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 1,648
    Perhaps ritual won't make anyone holy. And yet - Jacob Flaherty attested above, in another thread
    I was so moved when, at my first TLM, the name 'Jesus' was said at the sermon and instantly a whole sanctuary full of men and boys turned towards the altar and bowed their heads at the name of Jesus. That was the moment I was won over.
    To a very large extent the problem is not with the ritual as laid down, it is with the failure to follow what is laid down, or even to know what is laid down. At Midnight Mass the missalette includes the rubric (actually printed in red so that it is visible) "all genuflect at the next three lines", and Father pointed this out before starting the Creed. And yet many people were still caught unawares!
    Thanked by 2johnpb Gustavo Zayas
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,792
    Yah, well, at our parish, the Lit Dir-person did not bother to direct the lectors to the readings for the Mass at Dawn, NOR the Mass During the Day. Thus, the readings from the Mass at Midnight were heard at all the Masses.

    Second year in a row, (that I know of). Kinda sad.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,520
    At Midnight Mass the missalette includes the rubric (actually printed in red so that it is visible) "all genuflect at the next three lines", and Father pointed this out before starting the Creed. And yet many people were still caught unawares!

    What we got was not only the priest reminding people about the genuflexion before the Creed, but also interrupting the creed to say "Let us pause and kneel" and then, after 'and was made man', "Let us stand and continue".
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,956
    While it's not really legit, did it at least help?
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,520
    Hard to say: We had thirty years of the previous guy just reminding us beforehand and everyone just did it, cued by watching the priest and servers. I do know that it annoyed some of the more astute members of the choir. (Though not as much as the welcome address that was inserted between the Gloria and the Collect at Midnight Mass.)

    Personally, I am not a fan of this bowing/genuflecting thing. It's like a compromise struck at the Consilium meetings: some wanted to retain the genuflextion in the Creed, others to remove it: so they decided on bowing, except on Christmas and the Annunciation. In my opinion, it should either be a genuflexion all the time or bowing all the time. It's silly; like if they decided to replace the genuflexions after the elevations with a profound bow except on Holy Thursday and Corpus Christi, when you genuflect.

    (Apologies for ranting.)
  • Salieri,

    Being in favor of genuflecting isn't ranting.
    Thanked by 1cesarfranck