SSPX and ATLANTIC -
  • This is just a notice for any interested that there is in the current issue of 'The Atlantic' a very honest and complimentary article about the SSPX town of St Mary, Kansas, which is largely Catholic, and St Mary's parish, and the SSPX in general. The article is somewhat lengthy but very favourable in its treatment of the subject. I thought a number of our Forum membership might be interested.
  • Intriguing.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    It was a great article—worth the read!
  • The article can be found on-line at https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/retreat-christian-soldiers/603043/

    Though the author presents a balanced report, I would caution against saying it is "complimentary." Even avid "Benedict Option" advocates might wince at some SSPX strictures.
  • Surely that wouldn't be the same 'Atlantic'
    whose June 2019 cover and feature article was, and I quote,
    "Abolish the Priesthood. Save the Catholic Church by returning it to the people"

    if both articles were written by the same person, well, some people will do anything for a buck
    if not, they must have some interesting editorial staff meetings
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,184
    I find the article deeply disturbing. Not because of the Atlantic's reporting( which seemed pretty reasonable), but that this town has become a cult of the SSPX. The Church and the State have collided and in this case, the Church (so to speak) has forced its way. This is no different from other cult experiences. I am so troubled by the anti-Semitic content floating around in the SSPX and other ecclesiological problems. And I am close to a few SSPX priests and parishioners, so they are within my circle of experience. I know that some will see this as a "Benedict option" success story. But I do not see it as that.
    Thanked by 1Gamba
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 539
    Following on kevinf’s remarks, it seems to me I’ve heard this song before / it’s from an old familiar score....

    There was just recently in Harpers a story about abuse in the ultra-Orthodox community in the metro NY region. https://harpers.org/archive/2019/10/secrets-and-lies-sexual-abuse-orthodox-jews/

    Earlier this year was a six-part series in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette about similar problems among the Amish and Old Order Mennonites in Pennsylvania. https://newsinteractive.post-gazette.com/coverings/mennonite-amish-sexual-abuse-forgiveness-in-their-communities/

    The Southern Baptists are now also cleaning house after an exposé in the Houston Chronicle. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/article/Southern-Baptist-sexual-abuse-spreads-as-leaders-13588038.php

    Last year, Tara Westover became a best-selling author with her memoir about growing up in an rural, isolated Mormon family. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/01/books/review/tara-westover-educated.html

    These are just the first few big stories I can think of quickly on a Monday morning. Of course, we could go further afield to the FLDS, the Children of God, and other more theologically-unusual cults.

    In my childhood as a homeschooled Evangelical in the Northeast, we lived in the modern world, but only ever socialized with our kind. Quite a lot of secrets got swept under the rug; I knew friends of mine were badly abused, but we were told The Government would be more likely to ban homeschooling and put Christians in jail if the authorities were ever called in to investigate a homeschooling family.

    The majority of claims of sexual abuse with which the American Church is now dealing are from the 40s, 50s, and 60s, before the suburban exodus, when Catholics were still largely living in urban ghettos, going to separate schools, intermarrying, and staying put. This is at a time when there was still daily prayer in public schools; before anyone could talk about secularization or a sexual revolution. My grandparents lived through the Grande Noirceur in Quebec and saw what happened when this sort of Church married the State.

    Such an insular community cannot ever be healthy or safe, particularly for children. Even if today all the priests in St. Marys are saints and all the citizens are upright, the conditions are perfect for abusers to move in and go about their evil deeds without being found out. In such an environment, if one mother there starts sharing anti-vax propaganda, the whole town will be at risk for the sort of outbreaks we are now already seeing in the ultra-Orthodox sections of NYC. What happens to a kid with a learning disability the parochial school can't diagnose or accommodate, or the kid with functional-alcoholic parents, or the LGBT+ kids who think suicide might be the way out?

    And a matter infinitely less important: five or ten or twenty years from now, when 60 Minutes or the Times or someone finds a source, what's going to be the story? "These evil people who like incense and chant are all sadistic monsters?" "Catholics who pray in Latin are vile anti-Semites who torture children?" And how will that reflect on our work?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Gamba, the lesson here is NOT that 'Church-centric communities' such as St Mary's, Mormon installations, etc., are prone to child abuse.

    The lesson here is that child abuse in all the OTHER places is being studiously ignored so as to highlight "church" as deserving of suspicion. Shall we mention Epstein (who did not hang himself) as an example of non-church abuse buried by the press? How about Hollywood (until recently)?

    Evil walks everywhere, no place or person is immune.
    Thanked by 2cesarfranck BGP
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 539
    dad29,

    The lesson I take is that sunlight is the best disinfectant, that insular places* with codes of silence are good at hiding victims away, preventing them from getting help.

    *whether they are Epstein's private island, a commune, the Romanian orphanages of the 80s, the palace of the White Witch in Narnia, etc. etc.
    Thanked by 1cesarfranck
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    This is no different from other cult experiences. I am so troubled by the anti-Semitic content floating around in the SSPX and other ecclesiological problems


    Sexual sins can happen anywhere. And the term "anti-semitism" is a smokescreen to deflect attention away from bad behavior while accusing one's detractors of racism. Thankfully, there's a big difference between being against the various flavors of the belief system called "Judaism" and being a racist. If anyone, whether they attend an SSPX chapel or not, thinks of Jews in terms of race, they are being foolish.
    Thanked by 1BGP
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    stulte, your post makes no sense to me. Please clarify.
  • (This is not the worst article about St. Mary KS I've read in the press before. Remember when Culture Wars published Fr. Rizzo's Jeremiad about his experiences with that midwestern bastion of traditionalism? Take that 'hot take' for what it's worth.)

    As someone who has viewed the Society from a multitude of perspectives over the years, a few thoughts:

    There's a gentleman in the article, Mr. Doyle, who made quite a telling comment. As a 'townie', he's happy that a community is growing up in their town; he's unhappy that it's not his community.

    To which I say: we don't choose our communities. Our communities choose us.

    This sort of thing is driven home for me on many levels at this time of year. Christmas is about spending time with your family - biological or theological. Call me blasphemous, but sometimes this can be a bit of a struggle to endure. Do we agree with our extended family, let alone fawn over them with gushing adoration? Do we find them absurd and illogical at times? Do we look forward with baited breath to spending a substantial amount of time with them? If you said 'yes' to any of these questions, please, do let me know how the carpentry business in Nazareth is working out for you. Nevertheless, they are family. They have a way of endearing themselves to you, even at their most grotesque. And you find yourself instinctively stepping up to support and defend them, and you've got a fairly decent hope that they would do the same for you.

    There's a lot that makes me cringe in what 'Society folk' do. And I'm not talking about what the holocaust-denial and geocentrism stuff (which is more fringe in Society circles than you think, folks). I'm talking about the little things. The undercurrent of somatolatry that can be found most around any corner. And the element of machismo they tend to project (gotta say, Fr. McDonald's 'macho pose' at the top of this article elicited a suppressed guffaw from me). On the other hand, they probably find me a fussy, effete, closet-Institute guy who cares too much about the 'non-essentials' (i.e., music). But God put us in this community/family to act as a good influence on one another. Come to grips with this, and you will understand why the family is identified by the Church as the fundamental building block of Society.

    Merry Christmas by the way. Try not to stress as much as I'm needlessly going to do over the next few days.
  • The undercurrent of somatolatry ...

    At first I thought this was the worship of sleep - which could be quite appealing to many! :)
  • I tell people I chose my patron Saint (St. Joseph) not only because of my birthday, but because he demonstrated the benefits of frequent napping.
  • I need one question answered: can women wear pants?
  • Polska,

    Surely you mean "MAY", not "CAN"?
    Thanked by 1WGS
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    That reminds me of the Southerner who was asked whether he believed in infant baptism. He responded: "Believe in it? I've seen it!"
    Thanked by 1WGS
  • These Christians, in the eyes of The Atlantic, are surely being cast well because they are "behaving." The picture painted is one of retreat into mundanity deep in flyover country. Surely that's not how the SSPX see themselves, but it is just what the Atlantic would like to see us all doing.

    I hardly found this portrait flattering.
  • Cantus67Cantus67
    Posts: 207
    Certainly an interesting article but again my concern about the SSPX isn't that isn't traditional enough or doing the mass correctly. Imagine if the apostles created an "enclave" a "refuge" from the world? The SSPX has been, at least when I was going there and obviously still today, a place to "get away from the world", not in it yet above it. This is not a universal spirit in the SSPX there but it's quite prevalent with most of the priests and parishioners, and I think that Our Lord didn't wish us to hide our faith under a bucket but to be a beacon. You can't convert the world if you're constantly retreating from it. This is of course my opinion but I experienced it first hand in well over a dozen SSPX chapels, and it wasn't a small issue for them.
  • Surely that's not how the SSPX see themselves


    This, Mr. Nowhere Man, is assuming that the Society has a unified vision of how it carries out its apostolate. Experience has shown me otherwise!

    Imagine if the apostles created an "enclave" a "refuge" from the world?


    The catacombs?

    You can't convert the world if you're constantly retreating from it.


    Yes but neither can you convert it if you're constantly engaging in 'dialogue' with it.

    What people need to realize is that the church isn't going to be saved solely by the Benedict Option or the Augustine Option or one single charism. God utilizes the talents of all of His creatures. Both the Little Miss Sunshines and the Grumpy Old Losers like me.