The Organ Should Have Pride of Place - Against the Piano at Mass
  • I am looking for Church documents or perhaps theological-liturgical resources that support the use of organ over the modern piano as an accompaniment at Mass.

    The diocese in question is not American (Canada).

    The circumstances involve a parish that makes exclusive use of sentimental piano accompaniment - with not a single organ anywhere in the building.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,085
    Looks like the Canadian version of GIRM 393

    Likewise it is for the Conference to judge which musical forms, melodies, and musical instruments may be lawfully admitted into divine worship, insofar as these are truly suitable for sacred use, or can be made suitable.


    differs considerably from the U.S. version

    While the organ is to be accorded pride of place, other wind, stringed, or percussion instruments may be admitted into divine worship in the Dioceses of the United States of America, according to longstanding local usage, in so far as these are truly suitable for sacred use, or can be made suitable.


    So I suppose in Canada you have to appeal to Sacrosanctum Concilium 120

    In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.

    But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.


    However, you're not going to find the prooftext you seek that says no pianos, only organ may be used. It just doesn't exist.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    There was a long discussion here :- https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/4284/how-to-argue-organ-over-piano/p1 but it doesn't come up with a knockout blow.
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  • IF you're looking for a text which explicitly and exclusively applies to the Ordo of Paul VI, I'm afraid you're out of luck, because the modifiers will be shouted down: the piano isn't in accord with the dignity of temple, nor does it contribute to the edification of the faithful, but these concepts are simply taken as irrelevant in the modern environment. Look at any number of church buildings which aren't, themselves, in accord with the dignity of the temple action.
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  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,023
    Piano is such an interesting case...

    Would it have been forbidden on any general principles, if Pius X hadn't excluded it explicitly?

    I wouldn't consider a beautiful, acoustic concert grand any "noisier" or more "frivolous" than some of the Scharf III Mixturs through whose tuning I have had to suffer. In the context of modern music familiar to Average Joe, the solo piano is no longer the instrument of the tavern or the vaudeville stage. It is elegant, refined, thoughtful. It suggests an unhurried pace, serenity, and higher things. It contrasts the strong, beat-driven, over amplified popular music of today.

    I'd rather, x10,000, have well-played piano at Mass, than a poorly played organ.

    If the church has no organ, consider advocating for procuring a traditional pipe organ, rather than against piano. This isn't a hill to die on, in my opinion.

  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640

    If the church has no organ, consider advocating for procuring a traditional pipe organ, rather than against piano. This isn't a hill to die on, in my opinion.


    It would seem not, they only have “sentimental piano accompaniment”

    I would consider first advocating for the music itself to be of a sacred quality. What comes to mind with the phrase “sentimental piano” is far from sacred. If the parish is accustomed to sentimental music and used to singing with the piano, suddenly changing both (or suddenly changing just one of these) can be jarring.

    If chant and traditional hymnody take place of other “sentimental” musics, the piano accompaniment (or the accompanist!) will change by necessity. When sacred music is being sung well and established as the norm for the parish, it becomes clear that perhaps a pipe organ will be better suited than the percussive sound of a piano - no matter how beautifully played.

    If all of this is handled well, with due patience and charity to the Aunt Betty’s who will miss “the good ol’ songs,” people will come to appreciate sacred music and be moved to prayer by it. On the other hand, if you put together an argument for organ vs. piano, no matter how legislatively sound your argument may be, and throw it down on the board room table in a sudden and sweeping decimation of all sentimental ditties, a lot of people are going to hate a lot of things, including you and your dreams of an organ. At that point sacred music has no chance of ever taking root (whether accompanied by piano or organ) and both sides will be embittered by the experience.
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 162
    Hmm..if it looks like the odds of an organ victory are low, how about a "zen" approach to this "battle" : retreat from the organ and offer an ultra-minimalistic use of the piano to accompany chant (is that possible-I am not a professional musician?)...or just chant with no piano. And then maybe play a very serene and beautiful postlude (and/or prelude as appropriate) if they must hear more piano (as opposed to "more cowbell").
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I know about those mixture III's and recently had a screaming one reduced in volume by about two thirds on my own organ. Years ago, when I played for college chapels, there was a Steinway 9 footer in the 1500 seat college church. It didn't have the volume or presence the pipe organ had and the consensus was it couldn't lead singing as well as the organ.

    I tell folks wanting an organ about the clearing house where you can get a perfectly good organ for less than the cost of new. Also, I point to a local church on its 4th electronic while I am still playing our 1953 Schantz. A pipe organ can be repaired in 70 years. An electronic can not.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    If a parish cannot afford a pipe organ, I would much rather see them procure a good sounding piano rather that a digital simulacrum. At least the piano is real, acoustic and not canned or pre-recorded sound.
  • Ghmus,

    Having worked in situations with most of the possible permutations, I'm convinced that if there isn't a functional organ and a competent organist, the best option all the way round is to have unaccompanied music.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    these concepts are simply taken as irrelevant in the modern environment.


    Bingo! If you want to be viewed as "odd" or perhaps "needing meds", just rattle off the terms 'sacred time, sacred space, sacred language, sacred music' during a Liturgy Committee meeting.
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  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Yea....where I work we have a Spanish choir with a number of guitars...however we also have a harpsichord and it is not allowed to be used in worship. Huh?
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  • "Accorded pride of place" is an ecclesiastical term of art. It means that the subject of the expression is to be given prominence in Church documents, thus maintaining an appearance of continuity with prior documents. However the subject should only rarely be found in the context being discussed. Think Gregorian chant.
    Thanked by 1ACabezon
  • One might find success arguing this from the standpoint that the organ is better-suited to lead communal singing because its lack of decay and smooth onset is a closer match to the human voice.

    A piano is a good contrast with the human voice—which is why piano-accompanied art songs work so well. But that assumes a solo voice and a situation where the voice is to be heard for its own merit; this is a very different context from worship.

    Alas, though, most interested parties will approach ritual music the same way they approach listening to music on the radio, reducing all to a matter of individual taste. And on that field a lay musician cannot win on his/her own.

    @ACabezon, I’m not sure where you are, but where I am (Mississauga) places that value sacred music are few and far between. I comfort myself with the sense that clergy in their 20s and 30s seem more amenable to it, so maybe about the time I retire (heh) things will improve.
  • Felipe -
    Um, where is Mississauga?
    I had thought that you were in Toroto.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    It's adjacent to Toronto.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • It's in the Extended Metropolitan Toronto Area?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    - image
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • I used to drive through Mississauga on the way to Lester B. Pearson International Airport. I couldn't stop there, because I had a flight to meet or a flight to catch. Thanks for the reminder-Geography lesson.
  • I live within Mississauga as well, but most of my business in sacred music occurs in Toronto. The suburb is a bit of a liturgical no man's land.